From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Nov 1 18:12:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9139C2D0644 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:12:27 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f169.google.com (mail-ye0-f169.google.com [209.85.213.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF07F2D0625 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2012 17:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ye0-f169.google.com with SMTP id q11so643985yen.14 for ; Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:08:58 -0700 (PDT) s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jep5hK6yETxNScGM/hkzXIILiIW48MD6I/CedBGIxNs=; b=IMFeqdvEJeijMUmAAereX5RJS9+mn/UIV1FeVfprM6AcAlIKuJMgxVLwD4LaGMIsat kE+PWMwm07khCvy36/yUGRFuynbw6mlaVBsPbfuJkMayDszIAS6iatSetQ0NB+ACwTEa qWIG2Zg7OpWmLgagKpXQ5OmTWmXxOBZlhJmS1GuqK/5nfgR8e9izFv3yL6VCFMdrthUF JmsrUOrqyIJD32GtNzocUvh+dwFTlJ1ipQxPcyQ3OqPp4TXnpRV7yF+3stSVm/up/Mp+ v6/5PFpmOuW4UvQ1ktgofqqL5iw+I7dDW/yX/qIZiiynuI0IgLlb+sO3d2FBjSd1zaL0 AHAg== Received: by 10.100.228.10 with SMTP id a10mr3926072anh.77.1351811338621; Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e24sm8131975yhh.4.2012.11.01.16.08.57 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:08:54 -0400 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] First use for new multimeter Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Not its first intended use, but it'll hopefully work for this too: My living room has a Home Depot/Hampton Bay ceiling fan. The fan has a wireless remote that operates the fan and the integrated light. The light has stopped working. I first thought it was the fluorescent bulb (a 9" circline), so I bought a new one. No fix. I also have a Hunter-brand fan that did this same thing, it turned out to be the wireless control module in the fan itself that quit working (which I cunningly diagnosed by buying a new control module and installing it). So, I bought a new control module for the Hampton Bay fan. Of course it's not that easy--on the Hunter fan, the receiver is an add-on that lives under the fan's trim 'bustle' that covers the ball that mounts the fan to the ceiling box. On the Hampton Bay, it's actually buried in the motor housing and if it's replaceable at all, it's going to require complete disassembly of the fan. So I thought...I've got this new (cheap H-F) multimeter I bought to use for some HVAC diagnostics, I'll bet I can see if there's electricity coming out of the fan to the bulb, and that will at least tell me before I take apart the fan if it is in fact the receiver unit. It might be...something else, after all (though probably not). Maybe I just have (several) bad bulbs. Or maybe the thing I'll be calling the ballast is bad. So anyone want to help me electrocute myself? I can get two different wire sets to diagnose--a pair (one black, one white) coming out of the fan housing and going into a circular thing that lives in the center of the circline bulb. Ah--I just read the instructions on the bulb--that's the ballast. I assume the power to the ballast is coming directly from the receiver/controller unit. If there's power there, I can assume the receiver is doing its job. Then from the ballast is a single plug that has four holes that plug onto the four prongs on the bulb. If there's power there, I just managed to buy several bad bulbs, or more likely, I have a intermittent issue which means I'll be just replacing the fan (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here). What i don't know is what kind and amount of voltage I'm looking for on my meter. A/C or D/C? How much should I want to see? I'm ruling out a bad wiring connection from the house wiring to the unit because the fan and the lights use the same power source from the house, and the fan works just fine. This really is the same set of symptoms that was cured by a new receiver unit on the other one, but man, that thing is sealed up tight. Thanks in advance. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Nov 1 19:58:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933972D088D for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2012 19:58:50 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.99]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B76202D05F7 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2012 19:08:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 11477 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2012 01:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (12.162.141.2) by smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.99) with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2012 01:09:15 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:09:00 -0500 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121010 Thunderbird/16.0.1 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50930106.8040603@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] First use for new multimeter Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Scott, The voltage out of the receiver should be 120V AC. You can check it at that point. Another way to test it is to bypass the receiver and connect the ballast directly to power. As for the output of the ballast, I wouldn't mess with it. The voltage before the fluorescent lights is several thousand volts. This is much higher than the top range on your meter. Since you have already tried changing the lamp, I suspect that if the voltage coming out of the receiver is working that you have a bad ballast. Do you have another fixture that uses the same size bulb? If so, try swapping lamps. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Scott > Not its first intended use, but it'll hopefully work for this too: > > My living room has a Home Depot/Hampton Bay ceiling fan. The fan has a > wireless remote that operates the fan and the integrated light. The > light has stopped working. > > I first thought it was the fluorescent bulb (a 9" circline), so I > bought a new one. No fix. > > I also have a Hunter-brand fan that did this same thing, it turned out > to be the wireless control module in the fan itself that quit working > (which I cunningly diagnosed by buying a new control module and > installing it). > > So, I bought a new control module for the Hampton Bay fan. Of course > it's not that easy--on the Hunter fan, the receiver is an add-on that > lives under the fan's trim 'bustle' that covers the ball that mounts > the fan to the ceiling box. On the Hampton Bay, it's actually buried > in the motor housing and if it's replaceable at all, it's going to > require complete disassembly of the fan. > > So I thought...I've got this new (cheap H-F) multimeter I bought to > use for some HVAC diagnostics, I'll bet I can see if there's > electricity coming out of the fan to the bulb, and that will at least > tell me before I take apart the fan if it is in fact the receiver > unit. It might be...something else, after all (though probably not). > Maybe I just have (several) bad bulbs. Or maybe the thing I'll be > calling the ballast is bad. > > So anyone want to help me electrocute myself? I can get two different > wire sets to diagnose--a pair (one black, one white) coming out of the > fan housing and going into a circular thing that lives in the center > of the circline bulb. Ah--I just read the instructions on the > bulb--that's the ballast. I assume the power to the ballast is coming > directly from the receiver/controller unit. If there's power there, I > can assume the receiver is doing its job. Then from the ballast is a > single plug that has four holes that plug onto the four prongs on the > bulb. If there's power there, I just managed to buy several bad bulbs, > or more likely, I have a intermittent issue which means I'll be just > replacing the fan (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here). > > What i don't know is what kind and amount of voltage I'm looking for > on my meter. A/C or D/C? How much should I want to see? > > I'm ruling out a bad wiring connection from the house wiring to the > unit because the fan and the lights use the same power source from the > house, and the fan works just fine. This really is the same set of > symptoms that was cured by a new receiver unit on the other one, but > man, that thing is sealed up tight. > > Thanks in advance. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com > > > Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Nov 1 22:14:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1262D05CA for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:14:22 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2C72D063C for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:57:51 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jt8wFTHX0OYMJ8NwvxJPMgkUMgH5lqGbnKS0V3Uyh6ym3Z1TXOEmIOfvu5zVG3Th; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.194.247.123] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TU7TI-00005K-DY; Thu, 01 Nov 2012 22:59:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:58:06 -0700 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Scott References: <50930106.8040603@gmail.com> Cc: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] First use for new multimeter Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Scott - Easy thing first. Do you also have a pull chain that controls the light? Try that switch too. Someone might have switched it off that way instead of the remote. I expect this is not the case with anyone on this list, but the easy stuff sometimes works. The fans I've worked with typically have three power connections. The white is neutral, the black is the fan power, and the red or black with strip is the light. Brian On 11/1/2012 4:08 PM, Scott wrote: > Not its first intended use, but it'll hopefully work for this too: > > My living room has a Home Depot/Hampton Bay ceiling fan. The fan has a > wireless remote that operates the fan and the integrated light. The > light has stopped working. > > I first thought it was the fluorescent bulb (a 9" circline), so I > bought a new one. No fix. > > I also have a Hunter-brand fan that did this same thing, it turned out > to be the wireless control module in the fan itself that quit working > (which I cunningly diagnosed by buying a new control module and > installing it). > > So, I bought a new control module for the Hampton Bay fan. Of course > it's not that easy--on the Hunter fan, the receiver is an add-on that > lives under the fan's trim 'bustle' that covers the ball that mounts > the fan to the ceiling box. On the Hampton Bay, it's actually buried > in the motor housing and if it's replaceable at all, it's going to > require complete disassembly of the fan. > > So I thought...I've got this new (cheap H-F) multimeter I bought to > use for some HVAC diagnostics, I'll bet I can see if there's > electricity coming out of the fan to the bulb, and that will at least > tell me before I take apart the fan if it is in fact the receiver > unit. It might be...something else, after all (though probably not). > Maybe I just have (several) bad bulbs. Or maybe the thing I'll be > calling the ballast is bad. > > So anyone want to help me electrocute myself? I can get two different > wire sets to diagnose--a pair (one black, one white) coming out of the > fan housing and going into a circular thing that lives in the center > of the circline bulb. Ah--I just read the instructions on the > bulb--that's the ballast. I assume the power to the ballast is coming > directly from the receiver/controller unit. If there's power there, I > can assume the receiver is doing its job. Then from the ballast is a > single plug that has four holes that plug onto the four prongs on the > bulb. If there's power there, I just managed to buy several bad bulbs, > or more likely, I have a intermittent issue which means I'll be just > replacing the fan (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here). > > What i don't know is what kind and amount of voltage I'm looking for > on my meter. A/C or D/C? How much should I want to see? > > I'm ruling out a bad wiring connection from the house wiring to the > unit because the fan and the lights use the same power source from the > house, and the fan works just fine. This really is the same set of > symptoms that was cured by a new receiver unit on the other one, but > man, that thing is sealed up tight. > > Thanks in advance. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 00:19:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD3B2D07B9 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:19:07 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.226]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D422D055A for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2012 23:20:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.165]) by out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2012 05:21:23 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-130-93.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.130.93]) by relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8BD5519C93 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 05:21:22 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 22:21:39 -0700 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound right... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 08:35:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB582D0385 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:35:50 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39CB2D04A5 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:40:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qA2DfOes060152; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:41:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:41:14 -0400 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Dave C , Shop Talk List References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 11/2/2012 1:21 AM, Dave C wrote: > However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 > full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts > store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of > generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the > ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. The ex-wife has a Scion TC with the same 2.2L 4 that Toyota puts in the Camary and probably other stuff. They spec'ed 0W20 for use in all climates except the hottest part of summer. IIRC, I ran 0W20 in the winter & 5W30 in the summer. Castrol sells 0W20 in the regular GTX, and their synthetic blend. I believe there are two reasons why manufacturers are going to super light oils: 1) they help make the EPA gas mileage numbers test better, possibly at the expense of higher engine wear. 2) Engines really are built to MUCH tighter tolerances & clearances then they used to be. Cylinder & bearing clearances of only a few the-thousandths are common. -W _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 08:38:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7EA2D078B for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:38:49 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vb0-f41.google.com (mail-vb0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6802D04AE for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:43:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-vb0-f41.google.com with SMTP id v13so4704943vbk.14 for ; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 06:44:37 -0700 (PDT) s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=fyvezHrTvViVEraI3wW+XIi/y0rEsi5+EYr60VIA5IM=; b=l1iTQyBPiLXyEHoLbbAdsR3fBWii8rngfTwvmAZBLq0uj6UZ0MxmtDwdJw3P4PEVWr 4vxyiSl4Mas9ligCrFPCsCsp5sivqzZVeajE3KpsBjrh7mLuw31h6ugnxnstJk0bFKek apygy75s4zYo2BuUxkjrloAfAV39uve5YPvZs= d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=fyvezHrTvViVEraI3wW+XIi/y0rEsi5+EYr60VIA5IM=; b=Fy/84kaIE3qVaEo5j6eud0kFdf1TqHV4kXZiclmWz1iFGPTCR0L3Q9nqTI6qq5ehIm VpxqK9ZN/Rmfs7sGfe7k+64fs7E0Ah5tvQf1oEkBQcGfuv/kJCib0TCWhEghhwbroEig BlxlUO5n4Vy+kTxVpC4tUohTfSGkuKnexd8N4rL1S30VRAwPm8AppcwYYM1rMoL6JKvo sW2iZMx+VynTe+taq6PGBXV5pg5xMx1gKtHy/0mQIWTD95DPhJ/dEV9fhMwo37bWirhT UVb2RrmewCcY28FGXmbH4Rn1RbSknAngGn/goAzOHLPUsloE2i0K1Y4uPqNoBsHiMzVD m7hw== Received: by 10.58.168.135 with SMTP id zw7mr1923774veb.4.1351863877276; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 06:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.220.99 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 06:44:37 -0700 (PDT) References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:44:37 -0400 From: Ian McFetridge To: Dave C Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm no expert, but I think they go to the thinner synthetic oil to increase mileage by decreasing drag on the reciprocating parts. I imagine you could swap 10W30 dino and get the first oil change analyzed to see if there is an issue (again, not an expert!). or maybe extend the change intervals to make the synthetic more economical. I run Mobil 1 in our cars, but only change the oil every 15k on the toyota, v8 4runner, which makes the synthetic a bit more economical. I buy the oil in 5qt cans at Walmart. I had been testing the oil with Blackstone, but it always came back saying I could go longer between changes based on the amount of additive pack that remained. Our other cars get free oil changes when the idiot light comes on, but they seem to go at least 10k miles between changes -- maybe that's another reason some manufacturers spec synthetics. - Ian On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Dave C wrote: > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are > considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde > Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new > engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no > big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for > years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be > ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the > engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a > couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just > about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, > and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in > the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do > ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound > right... > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/shop-talk2@**mcfetridge.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 08:40:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63F62D07C5 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:40:19 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.64]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E9A2D04B4 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:44:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.51]) by qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id JdbR1k00216AWCUA7dlLFn; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 13:45:20 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id JdlK1k00e2yr1eL8SdlKmZ; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 13:45:20 +0000 Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 13:45:19 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: Dave C Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sounds like they are reaching for CAFE numbers. I'd use 5w20 or 5w30, whichever is available, full synthetic from Valvoline, Mobil or Castrol. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave C" > To: shop-talk@autox.team.net > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2012 12:21:39 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a > 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We > are considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking > with > my inde Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I > found the new engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket > engine. So far, no big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines > with that technology for years, although if the valves ever do need an > adjustment it's going to be ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs > 0W-20 > full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts > store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of > generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the > ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow > in the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. > Do ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't > sound > right... > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 08:42:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FDB2D07D2 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:42:07 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail941c35.nsolutionszone.com (mail941c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.131]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4D2D04B4 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:44:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from EricJRussellPC (99-194-27-8.dyn.centurytel.net [99.194.27.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail941c35.nsolutionszone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id qA2Dk5FX030942; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 13:46:07 GMT From: "Eric J Russell" To: "Dave C" , References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:45:33 -0400 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=3x23V0CFAAAA:8 a=RXa9WAT7Be8VtjrhULwA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=nqJWFPyLr_AA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I suspect as the demand for 0w-20 oils increases (many new cars are specifying very light oils) other oil companies will come out with 0w-20 oils (helping to keep prices down). Any Red Line dealers local to you? http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=124&pcid=21 Are you willing to check prices at WalMart? What is about 0w-20 that concerns you other than the price? If the engine is designed for it it the light weight shouldn't be a worry. This is not 1930's technology in a 1950's engine in a 1970's MG... Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave C" > I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY > spendy. > > 0w20 just doesn't sound right... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 10:12:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F122A2D064B for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 10:12:11 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qc0-f169.google.com (mail-qc0-f169.google.com [209.85.216.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871062D061F for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:03:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t2so1629146qcq.14 for ; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 08:04:43 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=DLwLohoq+eKQhfAyiflRiiTD/ryrwPPOEpgGdOjKhFE=; b=p/pjeGH8vptwLDKsTuG1oXOmE1LQa8KMsSytFXuR4PLLm/zC9gffd//9JE0bQ9Qz/N H5wFxakj30k3EWphHzaFOtbitu2UJAC0b8DE4WWgOB0XINM7Ni8cvkmSOdhAQlutO9Pk PwCE3nwVT3ketf3jcFsSnBz+R/k+pcLTUSSQ1j61Y5g8yaEQmjP+nGOU3jAwal+w7Ds6 ncPeyQ/kHkUoOYt8REIpYHbMo/NhVDbuxtiONQPuUFsr8DcorWkpbgc03xpvraRvNUkC fxJunnbN4dAP4gCtlNGmNRaRkbzwehUubfkK4hvNld5r215brVwP0DvSJRMie0VPKnHQ gWuw== Received: by 10.224.183.194 with SMTP id ch2mr2645796qab.24.1351868683352; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 08:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.87.66 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.87.66 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:04:43 -0700 (PDT) References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:04:43 -0400 From: Scott Hall To: Dave C , Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've had cars that spec 0W-20 for a few years now, so I guess the shock has worn off. I still worry that it can hold up to the Florida heat, but they spec-ed it, so I have to assume they've done their homework. As far as availability, there are plenty of options. I use Mobil 1, but I remember seeing others. Based on just the cars we have, I assume 0W-20 is going to be the new standard. It apparently does a lot for fuel efficiency and tolerances are a lot closer in engines now. Scott On Nov 2, 2012 2:21 AM, "Dave C" wrote: > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are > considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde > Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new > engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no > big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for > years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be > ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the > engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a > couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just > about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, > and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in > the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do > ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound > right... > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/scott.hall.**personal@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 10:15:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53332D0784 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 10:15:05 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from thunder.banklogic.net (thunder.banklogic.net [72.22.18.24]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763F42D05D7 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:18:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thunder.banklogic.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by thunder.banklogic.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id qA2FJVbY008898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:19:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by thunder.banklogic.net (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) with ESMTP id qA2FJVed008895 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:19:31 -0400 Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:19:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Andy To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <1963444525.80337.1351863919944.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> required 3, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, BAYES_00 -1.90) Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Howdy, On Fri, 2 Nov 2012, pethier@comcast.net wrote: > Sounds like they are reaching for CAFE numbers. I'd use 5w20 or 5w30, > whichever is available, full synthetic from Valvoline, Mobil or Castrol. I'd trust the engineers that built the motor, rather than a bunch of internet experts (even GOOD internet experts like we have here! :-) The only real question is if the engineers got overridden by someone with a concern that doesn't match yours. I think in the case of "what oil does the motor want", that's less likely. Mark _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 11:50:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDCB2D02C1 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:50:34 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com (mail-ie0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D352D0683 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 10:45:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 10so6618792ied.14 for ; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:46:28 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0msj+uh1QLPlPDEt3lNS9v8EMwnfM5+aUb40YaL6nWU=; b=HTmC6+QIZWfKnfQDeSJyopF00lTg/Yi7sktVcYGUQ8ebvFtW9dZvtilHFqf79BsVMW OqiX52wMl9+HnQYRwHW3FyRYfjog7LZkvLp8iKWQbyxzgllaKyLUpHzFYqgT858HMe17 rCns/MdOd8XawJturY4hKse7XAk68unfR7fPuWI7k1tOwJgJA++ZVtETZq/veuXK658x 0r3rPYsNd8fc+aPadl0AYK8Znp7JD9tgLTbAraZxqL++o0+RZKbZNqiSmhs+2XuLLLDv /U6jLfxqsryc1UNQNIl5XBw240YzVuleMCVP/fO4h91+bZ/NFz1DN/GjsH1ZBWjmg2mA cuvQ== Received: by 10.43.7.132 with SMTP id oo4mr2083254icb.6.1351874788135; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.43.201 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:46:28 -0700 (PDT) References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:46:28 -0400 From: Benjamin Zwissler To: Dave C Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The trend to lower viscosity oils is to reduce the power used to pump the oil improving fuel economy. Thinner oil pumps easier. I have seem some articles expressing concern about the impact of lower viscosity oil on engine longevity, but as others have said you have to assume the engine OEM engineers (and I am one) have assessed that impact and convinced themselves that the engine will still meet useful life targets with the specified oil. That said, passenger car useful life targets are typically 120-140,000 miles. Most OEMs would say they met their target if 90% of the engines that had the specified maintenance on a "typical" duty cycle lasted that long. If your duty cycle is more severe than "typical" (and that can be too low a load or too high a load) or you don't maintain it per the schedule then you're likely to get lower life. Less stressful duty cycles will make the engine last longer, but there is a point where increased maintenance isn't better. I had a long argument while working a curve at an autocross with a guy who was convinced that running high loads was good for an engine. Not true. For example, a combine engine, with a duty cycle that's 90% full load and 10% idle, will likely have a useful life (measured in hours) that's 1/3 that of the same engine installed in an urban delivery truck. Of course all idle and never warming the engine up will also cause reduced life. In the end this is the literal meaning of YMMV. Personally, the 0W20 and 5W20 scares me a little and so far I've stuck with 5W30. Ben..... On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Dave C wrote: > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are > considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde > Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new > engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no > big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for > years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be > ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the > engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a > couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just > about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, > and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in > the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do > ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound > right... > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@**gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 12:34:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CDBC2D0785 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:34:49 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront3.g2host.com [208.42.184.241]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35B32C09E4 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:45:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO HP62011) by mailfront3.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPA id 84569454 for Shop-talk@autox.team.net; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 12:46:32 -0500 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:46:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net It could be that the '0' scares us because we have not seen it before. We need to remember that the '0' does not mean "does not have any viscosity", only that the SAE viscosity index stops there. Page 11 of this ... http://www.oil-power.com/downloads/ViscTutor.pdf ... indicates that had some other index been used we could have numbers that would also be new to us ... we had not used that low a number before ... but the numbers would not as psychologically scary as 'zero'. Maybe in the future the marketing department will see that 'zero' scares people and they will petition the standards board for corrective action and 'zero' will become '100' under the new index ;-} Or maybe the motor engineers will make motors that will tolerate even lower viscosities and SAE will come up with a -5W [that is minus 5W] to adjust an index as it not longer reflecting the needs. Arvid _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 21:39:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD8D2D064E for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 21:39:31 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764D32D0624 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 20:02:21 -0600 (MDT) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=Za-K39_vQ0EA:10 a=fgDoawTNhZOiPgaV-rEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=hFwcADQ33CgJV9lcXZw7+A==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.110] ([10.127.132.110:41229] helo=cdptpa-web19-z01) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id 0E/EB-01425-37B74905; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 02:03:31 +0000 Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 22:03:31 -0400 From: Randall To: shop-talk@autox.team.net, Dave C Sensitivity: Normal Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Just to echo what I hope others have said, 0W20 is just numbers. It is slightly thinner when cold than say, 5W20; and slightly thinner all the time than 5W30. It will work fine, and perhaps save you a little bit on fuel costs. If you want to run 5W30 oil, it won't hurt anything except perhaps burn a bit more fuel. Just be sure to still use synthetic. A little poking around on the Internet shows Mobil 1 0W20 for around $9/qt, which is only slightly higher than most synthetics (I generally have to pay around $7.50 unless I wait for a loss leader sale). Check your local Wally-mart. Their web site doesn't list a price, but if they carry it in the 5 qt jugs it will likely be a lot cheaper than the per-quart price at other places. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 21:41:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF6B2D06D4 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 21:41:16 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0162D04BE for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 20:06:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.165]) by out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 03 Nov 2012 02:07:33 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-130-93.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.130.93]) by relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CF4E219C92; Sat, 3 Nov 2012 02:07:29 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 19:07:46 -0700 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Randall References: <20121103020331.KCZW3.146280.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks for all the comments. As Randall (and others) pointed out, it's just numbers, and I guess I will have to get used to it. I checked the owners manual on-line and it specs 0W20 synth and nothing else regardless of operating temperature, but interestingly, the turbo version specs 5W20. I also did a little poking around on one of the Forester forums and a lot of people seem to be buying their oil at Wally World, so I guess I'll have to check that out, too. On 11/2/2012 7:03 PM, Randall wrote: > Just to echo what I hope others have said, 0W20 is just numbers. It is slightly thinner when cold than say, 5W20; and slightly thinner all the time than 5W30. It will work fine, and perhaps save you a little bit on fuel costs. > > If you want to run 5W30 oil, it won't hurt anything except perhaps burn a bit more fuel. Just be sure to still use synthetic. > > A little poking around on the Internet shows Mobil 1 0W20 for around $9/qt, which is only slightly higher than most synthetics (I generally have to pay around $7.50 unless I wait for a loss leader sale). > > Check your local Wally-mart. Their web site doesn't list a price, but if they carry it in the 5 qt jugs it will likely be a lot cheaper than the per-quart price at other places. > > Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 2 21:42:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09072D07F6 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 21:42:44 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.139]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB062D0489 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 20:37:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [98.139.44.105] by nm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2012 02:38:49 -0000 Received: from [67.195.15.60] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2012 02:38:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp101.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2012 02:38:48 -0000 s=s1024; t=1351910328; bh=yMcBhrf+eved/UWp4iMa8IcKgw1IeMHtcuO5ScLcuWQ=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:x-mimeole; b=wWAPqiEr20xouodVqab6X0eaerXaEQ4rtLigS5XygMPR/D5R5lngKA8oGomEbzd3oYQd9764VIn6+c/dQ+xx3pH2Ir+zh/tYg1j8DGEjsov50TI92IuHhobxvxBtHJAVBuXyCCpbVR1za4+LltshXx7jnLVrBAaANlosr9BhSHY= ILKs8rPt3uciW6jxysDvZVSHdTHaxrvFHP.Z7ffwTJEIHbnpIg5.sTc6IFUn c0ZzvNEdzFKFL1qAjJZAvkVOe3BAj7OYoNG37TFgwloEFEWHQNlpKSnNn7Zt A8n_wLMzmCHUyDR4SjxbXdIoAcw.QKsSh8QCACjma60WzF7IXlhSY_3X.uY7 e.SdzF1pXxiBRLBSl2PJ0F7dLysGhyPM4CRu0HwpKdgq4vwP2Nhxa.HcZhB7 s5PcCmv12xcAKeIBdhwDsFppQjBvd0wU4xpDmPAwVluHm9Lk0BZn6vN1MZxu WTK1lWQKOXlnQIGhqeCMoRB8g7ShCmK3SgsObFTGBqWI9X_P8v9iysBH6O0D ezs3cwBf1ejkDdGfneWkJBA7axCRrz8ew0JRcepTxrCnIf1ob_g4Hdn5T6Pf 6Q31pcIfpjjnMszzdGBtbl2qTYLgjI0i.n0prijxeGIjHCnQxyt2T9F2gZ8Y gIX0nTV9iE3iCTbF8 Received: from EntCentPC (jibjib@71.212.7.230 with login) by smtp101.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 02 Nov 2012 19:38:48 -0700 PDT From: "Jack Brooks" To: References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 19:38:57 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac24wlfP4+msiwnKQHSTeP93P/A5DAAqDnIw Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Dave, The manufacturer does know what he is doing, but some of the low viscosity oil push is for mileage too. If you are west of the Cascades, I'd not be concerned about bumping up to a 5w20. Once you are out of warrantee, use the synthetic, but extend the intervals to make the synthetic more affordable. I've gone to annual changes on all of my cars, using Mobil 1. The only variance on this theme is my wife's Volvo XC90. It's a 2.5 liter straight 5 turbo engine in an SUV and after a year an oil analysis showed that the Aluminum and steel count was a tad high, so I switched to Redline and the numbers are back to being OK. The Mobil 1 just didn't hold up for 15k in the turbo engine, but it's fine in everything else I own and has been since 1981, when I switched to Mobil 1 and annual changes. It's been 30+ years of annual (spring) oil changes, several cars have come and gone and I know I'm doing the right thing. It's less expensive, less work and works just fine. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave C Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:22 PM To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound right... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 3 12:34:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E782D0395 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2012 12:34:54 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.56]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F06C62D02B0 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2012 11:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.73]) by qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id K5AZ1k0021afHeLA65HWXa; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 17:17:30 +0000 Received: from SusieandMarkPC ([76.21.64.167]) by omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id K5HV1k00F3cWj0U8d5HVGm; Sat, 03 Nov 2012 17:17:30 +0000 From: "Mark Miller" To: References: Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 10:17:31 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac25MVx/X1GaO5alR1yrDGSjBKCIHAAtVxYA Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] oil viscosity Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net 1. Re: Oil, again (Eric J Russell) Another thing to consider is that thinner oils pump far better at startup than thicker oils. You are lubricating with the first crank of the starter and the oil is flowing where it needs to go that much sooner. This will help with engine life. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 4 19:07:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E44B2D0BA2 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 19:07:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm26-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm26-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.91.230]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFC82D035E for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:57:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [98.139.91.66] by nm26.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2012 02:58:22 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.102] by tm6.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2012 02:58:21 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2012 02:58:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 23848 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Oct 2012 02:58:21 -0000 s=s1024; t=1351652301; bh=lDIrV7qZmffm4yh8Yy63MHe5aSKJmWfOyXG4tNkaLGw=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IDqc8p/k6yYcTbOyyUNZFpoeM/9l9emT91+LTcBgTruisu1GsXM+auXndVvPtdXj/vvs9pI2UZlmSYWYJlDrJEnfXJDDMxjA2Hs+g6QJAm3CHxu+38D1+EXzA+NXHuhNjaH3BtP8/CKKMS5pl8HgzcR0WKK9MXD4apES0guQ3sw= s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ihNF0XfyDjkAoT0xem1ZPKKiaYzRki5BlBwmNAcUq7RieEdWKzWjYuhvCDFys+NErpE6t9ha4+V1xSY58v7M1B6dC2s/2pG/WSSXgzRtVqX9buRK6NGtM9F5USqDtoA8ChylHb2ufnBxzBejdiafREcoLduRG8GS/2NtuEPkg7c=; lhnH6w14ZK7ZfhUAX9SnXXg5thQ8mrUReOHB5CLabQtZ_3VrlQ9uZ4tN0XGa h0WEKwvk39di.kxBiPtIEsfp8up0ViaT8NsLa57DjMIx6pivd0KkfKtgAixN q5MAnQjP0spyKGyNB2rx2aJCyjXJE1CxSS2LcYqeHZLyrAZbtLwl7v6RA2v. 5MI7nDzp_YswrnCSaEqDQSyU4TAqUHukG5wzZVHzpcpYNMbIXVv6DNjECjlG llp5tb3phaSiN5_gTUOoLOyRyZjCIDUI8DKAupdGo6pcCZsSj2KGhlCTVO9U MRQZRC12yErvAMmVB29eVZAl0OFLYJNuOL7sNvEgUzTMHMitpUiQGvI_OJCj G3DyKC8Y9VAP_S3Uih9qASET48gImb.qnA2tSE0b7QsqtZ4A0shn.eRvNLIh 9o0kdt5BKAxF1mR3Dqd38FGyfkHVhvEck0CTLmKV_hgzaBvuiNrjQkzTYyPS WXuwHPTV0Kwk8s64MmTBRg36Mao5GhYpmnefnExueqJqQSO7y9.yRhdL6Ilc tsyfXpaFafnZ9KQvGZ_AjOZGwGlqK8U6ruUoDSkXzCN.lphM9h8FeXUJrjKL 0I3lmUx5GOI.wbEQyRRPa42B5Nfc3q.qZIgS7xuRo2BPwNSkQ_QmpI3MYxyb maKY- Received: from [99.32.1.85] by web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:58:21 PDT VGhleSBhcmUgYSBsaXR0bGUgcHJpY2V5IGFuZCAib2xkIHNjaG9vbCwiIGJ1dCBpdCBpcyBteSBmYXZvcml0ZSBtZXRlci4gIAoKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zaW1wc29uZWxlY3RyaWMuY29tL2luZGV4LmFzcD9wPVByb2R1Y3RzJmlkPTMwJnNpZD00MCZzcz0zMQoKYSBsaXR0bGUgaGlzdG9yeSBhYm91dCBTaW1wc29uIG1ldGVyczoKCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc2ltcHNvbmVsZWN0cmljLmNvbS9pbmRleC5hc3A_cD1BYm91dF9TaW1wc29uX0VsZWN0cmljJnM9SGlzdG9yeQogCgoKCgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18BMAEBAQE- References: <50908146.6020907@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:58:21 -0700 (PDT) From: old dirtbeard To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a new multimeter Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net They are a little pricey and "old school," but it is my favorite meter. http://www.simpsonelectric.com/index.asp?p=Products&id=30&sid=40&ss=31 a little history about Simpson meters: http://www.simpsonelectric.com/index.asp?p=About_Simpson_Electric&s=History ________________________________ From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Sent: Tue, October 30, 2012 7:30:36 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a new multimeter On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Scott wrote: > So who likes their meter and what kind do you have? At work, I've got a variety of Fluke meters; a Fluke 77* comes to mind as well as a simpler one like the Fluke 113. But at home, I have a Radio Shack knockoff, as well as a Horrible Freight $4.99 special. The Flukes feel great, and you can drop 'em. You can drop the HF one, too, and then you can afford to buy another without feeling bad. *EDIT: It's a Fluke 73. Still a hoss... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard@pacbell.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 4 19:36:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99392D0B8C for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 19:36:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A532D0BA9 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 19:12:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:13:17 -0800 id 00000000002800C7.00000000509720BD.000057DB Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:12:47 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50908146.6020907@gmail.com> <1351652301.13976.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a new multimeter Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 10/30/2012 7:58 PM, old dirtbeard wrote: > They are a little pricey and "old school," but it is my favorite meter. > > http://www.simpsonelectric.com/index.asp?p=Products&id=30&sid=40&ss=31 I'll just note I've had decent luck buying used Fluke and Wavetek stuff off eBay... John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Nov 5 12:36:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83432D0ADE for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 12:36:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta41.charter.net (mta41.charter.net [216.33.127.83]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77D62D0B64 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 12:05:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20121105190620.OXQF10143.mta41.charter.net@imp11> for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:06:20 -0500 Received: from wt03 ([209.225.8.43]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id Kv6L1k0050vicD505v6L9J; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:06:20 -0500 cv=Mv9Cy8NsQItTEAHnXr6fCNbI23lcrkmyMeqLv9HU3yU= c=1 sm=1 a=SPAKA3mDuA0A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:17 a=W-MDtZrmdb2ef9nLXyYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Gsv3W8N5Mtpi2PHzWtEA:9 a=eBo-OgtCcA0V-vzQ:21 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:117 Received: from [165.189.65.12] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:06:20 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:06:20 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net HI all. My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that deciphers these codes? I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like nor have I found one that shows this particular code. Thanks! tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Nov 5 13:16:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F59C2D0AB2 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:16:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901F72D0B3E for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 12:52:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from mark.bradakis.com (166-70-156-36.ip.xmission.com [166.70.156.36]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677C32E06D for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 12:55:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 12:54:04 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120315 Firefox/11.0 SeaMonkey/2.8 To: Shop Talk References: <670ed32.141a99.13ad1f75ce8.Webtop.43@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net P0000 ? Are you sure? My S10 manual doesn't have any code like that listed. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Nov 5 17:10:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BF72D0B19 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:10:05 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta11.charter.net (mta11.charter.net [216.33.127.80]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7607B2D0B42 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:53:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp09 ([10.20.200.9]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20121105235456.WBRQ4251.mta11.charter.net@imp09>; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:54:56 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp09 with smtp.charter.net id Kzuw1k00P1Dq0wp05zuwM5; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 18:54:56 -0500 cv=nlrKf9u5uG3fs/vD0VBbL3/xzyN25p4t1WHsSeqasGo= c=1 sm=1 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=-xXUnULjvfwA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=v22a3o6Bd1A0stwNtIIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=J0aUVQLP0FIA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:54:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:54:56 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Tim User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net "SES" is Service Engine Soon to answer one question. Based on the replies, I guess it is time to get my own reader. Thanks all. tim On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Tim wrote: > HI all. > > My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's > code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that > deciphers these codes? > > I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like > nor have I found one that shows this particular code. > > Thanks! > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland@charter.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Nov 5 17:43:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C981A2D0B60 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:43:16 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com (outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com [64.136.55.36]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 26FAF2D0AED for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:18:27 -0700 (MST) s=alpha; t=1352161178; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=From:Date:To:Cc:Subject:Message-Id:Content-Type; b=Hm2fVUX4+UlT2lbP/m0u7ucJzbSfyuv5BN4WJgQMcJ3LxgtQdwEMIdp5M/W7yLvXd vOoQ+TD6f3LLqBjuOIYVFxFilOTaeYga2aoJa+pXyPBCr1FBL6N6YVxl7bZbIYEp47 r4GAbGKE0yhdzJYfLWTOvweCKDi/EWrMP5mnOjGo= Received: from outbound-bu1.vgs.untd.com (webmail01.vgs.untd.com [10.181.12.141]) by smtpout03.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJKSX5YAJ5R9Y2 for (sender ); Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.214.163.54] by webmail01.vgs.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 00:18:23 GMT From: "Matt" Full-Name: "Matt" Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 00:18:23 GMT To: tputland@charter.net Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I found a useful .pdf that has all the GM codes at: http://www.edgeproducts.com/product_images/customer_support_article-pdf-40.pd f ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Tim To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:06:20 -0500 (EST) HI all. My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that deciphers these codes? I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like nor have I found one that shows this particular code. Thanks! tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre@juno.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Nov 5 18:28:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB5E2D0AEC for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:28:12 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91F32D097A for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:58:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qA60xNe4074986 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:59:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:59:17 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <20121105.191823.22790.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 11/5/2012 7:18 PM, Matt wrote: > I found a useful .pdf that has all the GM codes at: > http://www.edgeproducts.com/product_images/customer_support_article-pdf-40.pdf Nice reference! Thanks, Matt. If you look at the coding structure explained there, any of the codes with a zero in the 2nd position (thousands digit) are standard across all manufacturers and cars, so it's not just a GM reference. Not every car is able to monitor every one of those, but a given code means the same thing on any car it pops up on. OBD-II also standardized the nomenclature for all the parts & controls. Seemed kinda draconian when it came out nearly 20 years ago, but in retrospect, it's a good idea and actually makes it easier for DIYers and small time shops to work on modern vehicles (vs having to have a manufacturer specific reader for each one.) -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Nov 5 18:28:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405FD2D0C27 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:28:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 215892D09CD for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:59:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qA610aI2075012 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 20:00:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:00:30 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Shop Talk List References: <6cd0bf8a.eeba7.13ad2ff967d.Webtop.47@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I googled "obd code p0000" and got 7 million hits. Appears to indicate "no problems, no codes stored." I bought this little $20 scanner and it does all the basic stuff: http://www.amazon.com/Autel-MaxiScan-MS300-Diagnostic-Vehicles/dp/B001LHVOVK http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0KZ-0002-00002 Used it on Mom's 2003 BMW 5' and a friend's 2007 Nissan Sentra. It will read out the standardized "basic" set of mandated codes, clear the codes, and reset the MIL. It was able the reset the BMW's "service soon" light (tune up indicator) but wouldn't reset the "change oil" light. Also does not do the fancy stuff like auto-trans, ABS, air-bags etc; you gotta spend a bunch more to get all that! -Wayne On 11/5/2012 6:54 PM, Tim wrote: > "SES" is Service Engine Soon to answer one question. > Based on the replies, I guess it is time to get my own reader. > > Thanks all. > tim > > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Tim wrote: > >> HI all. >> >> My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's >> code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that >> deciphers these codes? >> >> I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like >> nor have I found one that shows this particular code. >> >> Thanks! >> tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Nov 6 06:02:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425862D0C8B for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 06:02:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta41.charter.net (mta41.charter.net [216.33.127.83]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF4862D09EB for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 05:32:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp09 ([10.20.200.9]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20121106123343.CSKC10143.mta41.charter.net@imp09> for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:33:43 -0500 Received: from wt04 ([209.225.8.44]) by imp09 with smtp.charter.net id LCZj1k00C0x0GZM05CZjNd; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:33:43 -0500 cv=nlrKf9u5uG3fs/vD0VBbL3/xzyN25p4t1WHsSeqasGo= c=1 sm=1 a=SPAKA3mDuA0A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=-xXUnULjvfwA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:17 a=5m9ch3Ur2J9Rs9LJJp8A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=HKbOImT55sCxEHUN:21 a=7G1Y9ygWnZ5tW6Q4:21 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:117 Received: from [165.189.65.12] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:33:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:33:43 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net bI found a useful .pdf that has all the GM codes atb&b This is great, thanks! bWhat part of the world are you located in?b Near Madison, WI. Why? bI bought this little $20 scannerb&b Can I assume it will read GM codes? bYou gotta spend a bunch more to get all that!b Am hoping to not have to spend too much but will in order to get one that will do what I need it too. Thanks all! tim On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Tim wrote: > "SES" is Service Engine Soon to answer one question. > > Based on the replies, I guess it is time to get my own reader. > > Thanks all. > tim > > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Tim wrote: > >> HI all. >> >> My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's >> code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that >> deciphers these codes? >> >> I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I >> like nor have I found one that shows this particular code. >> >> Thanks! >> tim >> _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Nov 6 07:22:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CF32D0C54 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:22:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com (outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com [64.136.55.36]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C7B832D0985 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 06:51:00 -0700 (MST) s=alpha; t=1352209931; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=From:Date:To:Subject:Message-Id:Content-Type; b=lJTMt1gj9rLt8nsyO+Yr3/qGSXG2vicFSt4AlCy/cV04cIMKL3yhVck56jpwSiT6k TecgKApfslkAzGXgb3DX2/O/8dizbIzFHyWfUGXBxcBtDRclb0tTKY5G0OPoZxX25G asTNlGegI/AulK4FjSL8evnf0KBUTCJmMk/t6nB8= Received: from outbound-bu1.vgs.untd.com (webmail08.vgs.untd.com [10.181.12.148]) by smtpout03.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJKUFSDAJEXDBJ for (sender ); Tue, 6 Nov 2012 05:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.214.163.54] by webmail08.vgs.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:51:56 GMT From: "Matt" Full-Name: "Matt" Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:51:56 GMT To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net When I got my first relatively inexpensive code reader, I thought "great, now I can peer into the control systems and maintain all my cars!" It didn't take long before I realized that wasn't necessarily the case. OBD was reasonable regulation attempting to standardize trouble reporting and while us shadetree folks made out well, the justification for guvment monkeying with the private enterprise of auto manufacturing was emissions. Beyond a common interface and the mandated basic tuning/emissions requirements, there was no attempt to standardize the rest of how your car's computer operated & reported. While you can get basic code readers out of Asia for under $30, the growth of software in automotive function and control reveals that there is a whole lot more going on than what basic trouble codes reveal. I think the answer will be (is) an OBD to USB cable and instead of a dedicated reader, the secret sauce will be the softwware that runs on your laptop. That is what I had to get for my VWs and it is called VAG-COM. The capability/flexibility afforded by this set up is amazing but it isn't cheap - yet. Certainly cheaper than a big brand specific diagnostic machine that garages had to buy in the "olden" days. To combat the eventuality of a $20 cable and bootlegged software, they are placing a chip in the cable and the full-capability, supported software looks for the chip before it will work. I guess it is simply too much to ask for all car manufacturers to use common or open source programming for their products. With no incentive, why would they? MB _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Nov 6 08:07:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21302D0C6E for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 08:07:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7EBB2D0CA6 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:38:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from [172.23.23.190] (lan23.xxiii.com [12.43.186.106]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qA6EdcRb078083 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 09:39:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:39:32 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 11/6/2012 8:51 AM, Matt wrote: > can get basic code readers out of Asia for under $30, the growth of software > in automotive function and control reveals that there is a whole lot more > going on than what basic trouble codes reveal. I think the answer will be > (is) an OBD to USB cable and instead of a dedicated reader, the secret sauce Yeah, putting it in software seems like it should make it easy & cheap. Know of any? There were a bunch of free-ware ones for my old pre-OBDII Nissans. Surprised there seem to be none for new stuff (but I haven't looked very hard.) > That is what I had to get for my VWs and it is called VAG-COM. Setting new standards in ease of communication with otherwise difficult to comprehend females! :) -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Nov 6 08:24:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83AD2D0C6E for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 08:24:34 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253772D0AC1 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:59:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LCoD1k0011ZMdJ4A2F0mF4; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 15:00:46 +0000 Received: from stargate ([67.167.187.93]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LF0k1k00p21LTYK8cF0lPk; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 15:00:45 +0000 From: "gordies garage" To: References: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:01:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'll second an interface like VAG-COM. I paid $99 about 11 yrs ago and have upgraded my dongle (cable USB interface) for about $40 IIRC. I know I've saved hundreds if not thousands over the years on my '98 A4 and '03 A6 by being able to read the codes and take corrective action only if necessary, and clear the code for something unimportant. One can also do some fun stuff like change the locking (ie: all unlock with one button push) and/or close all windows and sunroof with the lock button. I believe as an investment in a tool that VAG-COM is well worth the money. my .02 Gordie Bird -------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt" Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 8:51 AM To: Subject: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics > When I got my first relatively inexpensive code reader, I thought "great, > now > I can peer into the control systems and maintain all my cars!" It didn't > take > long before I realized that wasn't necessarily the case. OBD was > reasonable > regulation attempting to standardize trouble reporting and while us > shadetree > folks made out well, the justification for guvment monkeying with the > private > enterprise of auto manufacturing was emissions. Beyond a common interface > and > the mandated basic tuning/emissions requirements, there was no attempt to > standardize the rest of how your car's computer operated & reported. While > you > can get basic code readers out of Asia for under $30, the growth of > software > in automotive function and control reveals that there is a whole lot more > going on than what basic trouble codes reveal. I think the answer will be > (is) an OBD to USB cable and instead of a dedicated reader, the secret > sauce > will be the softwware that runs on your laptop. That is what I had to get > for > my VWs and it is called VAG-COM. The capability/flexibility afforded by > this > set up is amazing but it isn't cheap - yet. Certainly cheaper than a big > brand specific diagnostic machine that garages had to buy in the "olden" > days. > To combat the eventuality of a $20 cable and bootlegged software, they are > placing a chip in the cable and the full-capability, supported software > looks > for the chip before it will work. I guess it is simply too much to ask > for > all car manufacturers to use common or open source programming for their > products. With no incentive, why would they? MB > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mg_garage@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Nov 6 08:57:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A932D0CE4 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 08:57:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54582D0AC2 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 08:31:09 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=a_TN9dwsRlsA:10 a=r8-qTf6Gl_jQMLIRrVAA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=GvVg_Zd0jvW6gFVd:21 a=ZG7nhLqLRwjjHMVy:21 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55001] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id CC/D2-21565-58D29905; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 15:32:21 +0000 From: "Randall" To: References: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:32:26 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac28KmFCruMxQ1lfTFeXAvackxXx9QABhEWw Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > To combat the eventuality of a $20 cable and bootlegged > software, they are > placing a chip in the cable and the full-capability, > supported software looks > for the chip before it will work. Actually, that chip is a fairly sophisticated microprocessor, with the integrated hardware controllers required to talk to CAN bus (OBD-II) on one side, and USB bus on the other. They are very different interfaces; and CAN in particular is a very odd network protocol. The ones sold to garage mechanics are also quite limited in functionality. We just bought some more of the "good stuff" at work, and they were nearly $2000 each just for the hardware and software library to communicate with it. > I guess it is simply too > much to ask for > all car manufacturers to use common or open source > programming for their > products. With no incentive, why would they? There are in fact powerful disincentives not to. There is a great deal of money spent on developing that software and it changes pretty much constantly. Giving away source code that cost literally tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and can benefit only one's competitors just isn't going to happen. But you are quite right, those diagnostic addresses are only the tip of the iceberg for what is actually going on inside. I spend a good deal of my professional life writing CAN bus code; and diagnostic addresses are just something that gets stuck on afterwards, to help troubleshoot problems in the field. That's pretty much the way it has to be, since a DA can only be updated at 10 Hz or so, but practically any control loop (ignition, fuel, ABS, etc) has to run much faster. We run up to 1 kHz in software, faster loops are done in (custom) hardware. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Nov 6 14:56:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668212D0B1A for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:56:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from eastrmfepo203.cox.net (eastrmfepo203.cox.net [68.230.241.218]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A812D09CF for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:33:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from eastrmimpo109 ([68.230.241.222]) by eastrmfepo203.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.04.00 201-2260-137-20101110) with ESMTP id <20121106213449.PIVP29905.eastrmfepo203.cox.net@eastrmimpo109> for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:34:49 -0500 Received: from Laptop ([70.177.178.171]) by eastrmimpo109 with cox id LMag1k00T3iGAlS01Maonv; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 16:34:49 -0500 a=cOZ3e3yPQn+tsG8VysTnIQ==:17 a=_gn1u2QxQqAA:10 a=G8Uczd0VNMoA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=vqM7ufWW98sA:10 a=hfgOpSF52JwnBBiblXUA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=cOZ3e3yPQn+tsG8VysTnIQ==:117 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none From: "Jo Mullen" To: "'John Miller'" , Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:34:41 -0500 Thread-Index: Ac26/qLVbrT1JH2PSS+qd6r89JytvwBZ34rg Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a new multimeter Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net For what it's worth, I too have a good Fluke meter. It stays in my tool box and is used when exact measurements are needed. I also have a couple of the cheap Harbor Freight meters. They get tossed around, kkept in the junk drawer in the kitchen, in the subset of tools kept in the trunk, etc. They work well when you are looking for continunity, or voltage, or a gross reading of resistance. Both have their place. Tim Mullen _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Nov 7 05:34:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41172D0D22 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 05:34:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C4A2D0D01 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 05:05:22 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fl17so1825723vcb.14 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 04:06:35 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=l7kQTBVlWFR2yYKey3L8qCxV0pVZdPXnV8HrWVsWi1A=; b=QELIFXEDNgzYuGeLMCLh6bWKbB2AUcdRC7NmfJUmSA/etNuSb3fmSfW3EC/tfk1Kvd N1S78pnLU7OGEO9RkZC+ysnobOlkDgLSn1OtCiSCmJ4kKQnDCtb6owpFAE66yTeHgWge AewtU+Lt+dLAjnU8LH5oT5iTUeld865fKvFFfvX+zTJBPE25l8URAiEDSb2kNIDMp40K ha+LwQ/06Esb5MUE3iJcxxTZgWoUzBvVMHAx+eFbF5jpJXxhrr8WwGMkuLVuHM3eWLWo jKXUCRTdZDQXhE3lPIqZplZM7K887yPZuBrsWnjwGs9iw8UYRjKEJ9RthYwLeJAdafUV LH7w== Received: by 10.52.175.167 with SMTP id cb7mr3348008vdc.58.1352289995576; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 04:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 04:06:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 07:06:35 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Massachusetts "Right to Repair" Ballot Initiative Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net A political topic that is actually relevant to this list! I just noticed this, which apparently passed overwhelmingly: http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Massachusetts_%22Right_to_Repair%22_Initiative,_Question_1_%282012%29 Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Nov 7 09:13:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F1C2D0B60 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:13:06 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB982D0D26 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:41:38 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=GL05nxLHLokA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=mgID8w5tvvAA:10 a=4XaE_mQp3fID6ZDTYYMA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55002] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 5A/30-01425-B718A905; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 15:42:51 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Shop-Talk'" References: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 07:42:57 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac285GSabbkUgoL1QbGatUwjOOLe5gAFcd1w Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Massachusetts "Right to Repair" Ballot Initiative Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I just noticed this, which apparently passed overwhelmingly: It's interesting, but I can't see that it changes anything, much. They are allowed to charge "fair market value" for the information, which could easily be a lot more than I'd be willing to pay (eg $50,000 per year is pretty reasonable if you are selling 100 cars a month); and information pertaining to alarm systems or "trade secrets" is expressly excluded. Anything they haven't already published could likely be considered a "trade secret". How many independent shops, let alone individual owners even drop $500 on a set of manufacturer service manuals? And I'm guessing that the EPA will balk at the idea of letting any car owner know how to dirty up their exhaust, meaning it will be overturned fairly easily. Interstate commerce and all that. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Nov 8 07:10:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA44A2D0F68 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2012 07:10:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com (mail-ie0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B232D0E9A for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2012 06:45:42 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 10so5190149ied.14 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 05:46:56 -0800 (PST) h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=b2Ixh8w5uJX0YmhJsqP/cQbwiyhP9U2PpXqyfkHy9Gw=; b=yu9xapj/wCw+rnxrg/8RYne1DaiUr5Im0MUftZVACQMD+Y+4BEpMsK4T65UsmTqHJ6 jtfhx5m3iGRW3DxD/R4Hir6XDxPHwP9SJhL57vSFCfZI7qMdZM1rs5lZfN1XhEPGARLc xVoP+eGdFcb94MxMyDrRqcruae6R9Azs81VJuRDVu60CObEhWCXUxVWsnsIbDCIzSq3I S6ZmYfxJuLcPRyTQ6dUUgNWIm3KOJh8JpRBtk1GQg9On6p8yevq/KJNAZuBrDufrk5a7 AVd4iKn9g9OYW5EqeaZZBYCx3aWqAKxEf+m1+KSmkEIfE0SYtJk5dEWMKQ9+3EKSasKl NRuQ== Received: by 10.50.197.169 with SMTP id iv9mr8118306igc.32.1352382416028; Thu, 08 Nov 2012 05:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (216-80-25-248.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com. [216.80.25.248]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ff4sm4405811igc.13.2012.11.08.05.46.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 08 Nov 2012 05:46:55 -0800 (PST) References: <0fb001cdbcfe$8fadf5b0$0601a8c0@randall> From: David Scheidt Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 07:46:53 -0600 To: Randall , shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Massachusetts "Right to Repair" Ballot Initiative Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:42 AM, "Randall" wrote: >> I just noticed this, which apparently passed overwhelmingly: > > It's interesting, but I can't see that it changes anything, much. They are > allowed to charge "fair market value" for the information, which could > easily be a lot more than I'd be willing to pay (eg $50,000 per year is > pretty reasonable if you are selling 100 cars a month); and information > pertaining to alarm systems or "trade secrets" is expressly excluded. > Anything they haven't already published could likely be considered a "trade > secret". > > How many independent shops, let alone individual owners even drop $500 on a > set of manufacturer service manuals? > > And I'm guessing that the EPA will balk at the idea of letting any car owner > know how to dirty up their exhaust, meaning it will be overturned fairly > easily. Interstate commerce and all that. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 9 17:39:51 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EFC2D061E for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:39:51 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440C92D0395 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:30:17 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fl17so5524535vcb.14 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:31:32 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=yYhHajdFkwK3GeROauHkeQXjNqPLrv63zElnIESRTXU=; b=b8iok4PCoXVq35Dl/nrxTgTjOxEqwNIol4L3ZR47dzr3t6PRc6zatqdnQBHcpLNYZ/ wdlYelNBFdCM/s4tooMi/SrYemiT4r7dNCeFT4zi82o4C0epv2/duDKlUMzrgetRIeWU dxPlqIJ2DlVGvX3feiY6yse9Vr4TqmlV/kFy1rGAVjn24BPx/bw3WMzlnOPiEUySFq3H ezXbDlI184d8YIvu77MzmEWsDrS3JN9OqiaX47ug9qO3PRAWF+JTFodc+jO535KVuE1K fhexZiS+2fbLZycd6rORfTUGNCRHc7Ay4F+pXJi0lpvCTzstncwju9S4oAzHevyvQQZ7 Ol/w== Received: by 10.52.89.132 with SMTP id bo4mr11022033vdb.80.1352507491960; Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 16:31:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:31:31 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hello, I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's starting to fall apart. Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? I'm not looking for some giant fancy thing, but one that is not a hassle to use, not too noisy, and will not fall apart. I tend to do a lot of little 30-second vacuuming jobs, mostly with a hand brush as opposed to a floor wand/brush. Thanks, Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 9 18:09:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0922D05F3 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 18:09:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97DB2D04EA for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:52:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAA0rhtl094474; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:53:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:53:35 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Doug Braun , Shop Talk List References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 11/9/2012 7:31 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's > starting to fall apart. > Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? I think there are really only two major manufacturers. Actual "Shop Vac" brand, which most people say is lousy. And Ridgid, which sells under their own name (@ Home Depot & elsewhere) and also appears to make Sears'. There are some esoteric brands with absurdly high (multi-hundred dollar) price tags, but you'd have to be an every day finish carpenter or similar to justify them. I have a Ridgid 12gal one from H.D. that's worked well for 4+ years. The local H.D. has it (well, pretty much the same one) on holiday sale right now for $70 (same I paid years ago) AND it comes with more accessories than I got for the price (floor brush & squeegee nozzles). I can't say it's quiet, but it is improved -- a lot less shrill or high-pitched than the older Sears I had. I like mine to be easy to move around, so I don't like the huge tank models. Who needs 20+ gallons liquid capacity? That's what a pump is for! Unfortunately, the mini-sized ones don't have all that much suction. The Ridgid is a good in between size for me. -W _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 9 18:11:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DBB22D068C for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 18:11:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront3.g2host.com [208.42.184.241]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB7F2D050B for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:54:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO [192.168.1.45]) by mailfront3.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPSA id 85576928; Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:55:32 -0600 References: From: Arvid Jedlicka Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 18:55:38 -0600 To: Doug Braun Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I got one of these a while ago to supplement the bigger vacs that never seem to be where I and the dirt are. I find it handy to store and easy to grab, plug in and use plus it seems to be quite powerful for the size. http://www.homedepot.com/Appliances-Vacuum-Cleaners-Floor-Care-Wet-Dry-Vacuum s/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbv79/R-203235053/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1 &storeId=10051#.UJ2kamt5mSM On Nov 9, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > Hello, > > I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's > starting to fall apart. > Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? > I'm not looking for some giant fancy thing, but one that is not a hassle to > use, not too noisy, and will > not fall apart. I tend to do a lot of little 30-second vacuuming jobs, > mostly with a hand brush as > opposed to a floor wand/brush. > > Thanks, > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj@visi.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 9 18:26:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32132D0630 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 18:26:47 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAFC2D04EA for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:59:15 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rMBU2vDnAWt/E5KUnUeACp7dKJjLPwulYcismUbTV9+WjXKVt8DCsN32g/5WZrTo; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.194.240.201] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TWzQk-0001HT-63; Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:00:14 -0500 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:59:08 -0800 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Doug Braun References: Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Doug - Both Lowes and Home Depot typically have a shop vac or two as a black Friday special for a very low price. I picked up a Ridgid one to replace my failing 15 year old ShopVac screamer. It had a larger diameter hose which makes for fewer clogs. It also is easy to switch from suck to blow which either cleans out the hose or helps clean up the work area. Lowes has part of their stuff out - was$89, will be $39. http://www.theblackfriday.com/ads/lowes/lowes-black-friday-ad1.shtml. Brian On 11/9/2012 4:31 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > Hello, > > I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's > starting to fall apart. > Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? > I'm not looking for some giant fancy thing, but one that is not a hassle to > use, not too noisy, and will > not fall apart. I tend to do a lot of little 30-second vacuuming jobs, > mostly with a hand brush as > opposed to a floor wand/brush. > > Thanks, > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 9 20:45:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 644AE2D06E3 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:45:23 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from eastrmfepo203.cox.net (eastrmfepo203.cox.net [68.230.241.218]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAAD92D063B for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:17:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from eastrmimpo110 ([68.230.241.223]) by eastrmfepo203.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.04.00 201-2260-137-20101110) with ESMTP id <20121110031843.ZBZV29905.eastrmfepo203.cox.net@eastrmimpo110> for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:18:43 -0500 Received: from Laptop ([72.209.198.214]) by eastrmimpo110 with cox id MfJd1k00K4e2Beo01fJjRo; Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:18:43 -0500 a=z+JOQeSqIXLCGjBsmWTDRw==:17 a=G8Uczd0VNMoA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=UjWhuN01mjsA:10 a=uenL22KIgXgfv59qs78A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Mh8y0HlcFSmW_JLg:21 a=iioO1bHOT4M7nwbl:21 a=z+JOQeSqIXLCGjBsmWTDRw==:117 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none From: "Mullen" To: "'Shop-Talk'" References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:18:38 -0500 Thread-Index: Ac2+42CIYX4sGOjFTuO03xXnGtSILgADe4Mg Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On the subject of shop vacs, many years ago, I bought the handiest accessory for my nearly 30-year-old Craftsman vac. It is a new hose - a hose that is about 15-20 feet long. Makes it extremely handy for most tasks, as you do not have to move the vac around very much, if at all. It is also one of the large diameter hoses (what? 2 inches instead of the normal 1 1/2 inch hose?) Tim Mullen _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 9 21:15:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27AAC2D06EC for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:15:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA5D2D06BE for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:01:30 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fl17so5642723vcb.14 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:02:45 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=XnNTW1jYFKL+oyokJI9UPYOyYq9+yN/0TZoSVKMndFE=; b=VEpwqzV/iam/s/9g3ratrbUGNu3jCxUGhcV8c1D1POptf3NHkCfUo9n1OgpFGYyLaa MVa0+DT2xXT3TcMhxtoNsHsZeRa2wUPO/C+Y3hkHjKdZGAv4+Q98VEYfEdRitQa+WoeC gPrYp87brzOrxVn8GcFWQQDjC+JW7amHy5GtNXgqGoQ+2EG9SiqOutfGWQd2H7rzkhXp RcXsgO+1AwNahEaIw0bsADQ/JLSDqIX1xdxG1Bq6LecDY49FJEgJMqJcv1mhX//PEjv/ JygA1d9sgNMefUknmuezSYNGmFjeITk+Mj99CdA8jZ3xeRxSck9AylSKq22rm2XUdR7n uLEA== Received: by 10.52.36.235 with SMTP id t11mr11464199vdj.62.1352520165187; Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:02:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:02:45 -0800 (PST) References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:02:45 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Mullen Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 It has a wall-mounting bracket, and at the end of the hose there is a remote control switch, so you can turn it on and off where you are working, instead of having to walk back to the main unit. Doug On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Mullen wrote: > On the subject of shop vacs, many years ago, I bought the handiest > accessory > for my nearly 30-year-old Craftsman vac. It is a new hose - a hose that is > about 15-20 feet long. Makes it extremely handy for most tasks, as you do > not have to move the vac around very much, if at all. > > It is also one of the large diameter hoses (what? 2 inches instead of the > normal 1 1/2 inch hose?) > > Tim Mullen > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug@dougbraun.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 9 21:32:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FF62D074B for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:32:03 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52AA2D068D for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:23:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAA4OKsm095139 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:24:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 23:24:12 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Shop Talk List References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 11/9/2012 11:02 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 Wow, 5HP @ 120V. That takes around 32 amps. Didn't they ban BS HP claims, or get sued over them a few years ago??? -w _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 10 05:46:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594CC2D07C3 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:46:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986CA2D0673 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:41:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CB228406E for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 04:43:01 -0800 (PST) content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= groupwbench.org; bh=X6bSTfhV9D4pC1tyCWvW666nc8M=; b=lH7DQx+PSbOC K7pzUJvb3HJrKEDtHiO5LgxaHgsuoot2w6KdPWn4NtM3/16NHRaWlpoze424VdU8 v6DTmGOSZ17/TpGQ+cmnCN4q3kfwhehWv5wFspP2nFVitGtQDqmdEyjXXBKtAUDG ENHuKl+Q+7ROjRKXAcx3cCgrWvZxRag= Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-98-118-112-94.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.112.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 877F728406C for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 04:43:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 07:42:58 -0500 References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> <509DD6EC.2060007@xxiii.com> To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Nov 9, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Wayne wrote: > > Wow, 5HP @ 120V. That takes around 32 amps. Didn't they ban BS HP claims, or get sued over them a few years ago??? That's 5hp potential in the unburned fuel at the electrical plant :-) I have a large Rigid (ahem) and a 1gal ShopVac. Both have been for for years although both are quite loud. The 1 gal sounds right for your application though it's torquey enough to spin itself if you don't hold it. Quiet costs. WAP makes a nice one. You could always locate the vacuum remotely like central vacuum system but that's fancy... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 10 06:01:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7C92D07F6 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:01:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-oa0-f41.google.com (mail-oa0-f41.google.com [209.85.219.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF47B2D0648 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:59:05 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id k14so6007841oag.14 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:00:19 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6BdGOJqBVT1Zx/drdjs+kD/AwtUJiSKBzRyNnAW42fo=; b=HEl9GIAsFMiikVvGKePQ0Sbeq/D4U0w0kIhUi9J5tEOMk2M49Ujv1EHq+KiT+VyOXW uYG3K/KdRrgEkxNjHibcehJo4m4USzI4LcjR3cbWG/0cs0kFm+xPWscJICmcD9wZy+yx MtJvwEjTjPOiVGbrcuWXGQsyNbTt1CfmeGR6BI9famyhei9Ly8CcvdTxsUVODa98vSFs d1ibiw4JZMx+AxeQp6X47uqDV3iRgslzsMBQhgH7hw6cBNxju3NCh4m8mii4YIwsMa8C F7q4MZXtEJVWJ83r2GTiBODvk7VbeTvT4WhU4Vt9RZkgn607ks36gJzGGFOW7Wn0jitc Ahaw== Received: by 10.60.5.138 with SMTP id s10mr10127812oes.80.1352552419874; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.127.197 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:00:19 -0800 (PST) References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:00:19 -0500 From: Paul Parkanzky To: Doug Braun Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net A lot of my 'online car buddies' have these: http://www.bissell.com/garage-pro-wet-dry-vacuum/ And they're very well reviewed on the forums. They all bought them extremely cheap through a friend that works at Bissell. I missed out on the deal and I'm kicking myself for it. -Paul P. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: > > > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 > > It has a wall-mounting bracket, and at the end of the hose there is a > remote control switch, so > you can turn it on and off where you are working, instead of having to walk > back to the main unit. > > Doug > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Mullen wrote: > > > On the subject of shop vacs, many years ago, I bought the handiest > > accessory > > for my nearly 30-year-old Craftsman vac. It is a new hose - a hose that > is > > about 15-20 feet long. Makes it extremely handy for most tasks, as you > do > > not have to move the vac around very much, if at all. > > > > It is also one of the large diameter hoses (what? 2 inches instead of the > > normal 1 1/2 inch hose?) > > > > Tim Mullen > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug@dougbraun.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 10 07:19:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846C92D0810 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 07:19:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront3.g2host.com [208.42.184.241]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346472D07F7 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 07:19:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO HP62011) by mailfront3.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPA id 85609949; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:20:49 -0600 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: "Wayne" , "Shop Talk List" References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> <509DD6EC.2060007@xxiii.com> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:21:45 -0600 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net That is the ILS electric motor rating system used primarily for shop vacuums and air compressors. ILS -- If Lightning Strikes --- -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:24 PM To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac On 11/9/2012 11:02 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 Wow, 5HP @ 120V. That takes around 32 amps. Didn't they ban BS HP claims, or get sued over them a few years ago??? -w _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 10 16:21:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B462D08C0 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 16:21:38 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.37]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 564752D04C3 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 16:20:53 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 29710 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2012 23:22:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (12.162.141.2) by smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.37) with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2012 23:22:00 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:21:49 -0600 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Shop Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] 06 Caravan wiring help needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My 2006 Caravan is sitting in my shop and I am trying to replace the overhead lighting console with one that has the trip computer in it. I have all the mechanical parts needed, just need to run one wire to it. Anyone have a wiring diagram or at least color code for the one extra wire I need to run? I assume it runs to one of the circuits in the OBD II connector, but can't find anything on line about it. Thanks in advance. Peace, Pat -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 10 17:11:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA4D2D08BC for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:11:06 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17742D0828 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:10:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAB0Bmfi099078 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 19:11:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 19:11:39 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <509EE18D.4030401@hornesystemstx.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 06 Caravan wiring help needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Are you sure it needs more wire? CAN-Bus has been common for nearly 20 years now, and cars blip network packets over power conductors, rather than running separate conductors for every device. Even if it was hard-wired, I doubt they would have two different harness stocked on a 'line just for one optional feature. -w On 11/10/2012 6:21 PM, Pat Horne wrote: > My 2006 Caravan is sitting in my shop and I am trying to replace the > overhead lighting console with one that has the trip computer in it. I > have all the mechanical parts needed, just need to run one wire to it. > Anyone have a wiring diagram or at least color code for the one extra > wire I need to run? I assume it runs to one of the circuits in the OBD > II connector, but can't find anything on line about it. > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace, > Pat _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 10 17:51:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976E92D090E for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:51:21 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.104]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405792D08B5 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:50:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([12.162.141.2]) by p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id N0ra1k00403JK1Y010rdE1; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:51:37 -0700 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:51:24 -0600 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <509EE18D.4030401@hornesystemstx.com> <509EED3B.2090801@xxiii.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 06 Caravan wiring help needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wayne, I just found a wiring diagram on the net and see that the connector i was looking at was for the lights only, and not the CAN-bus module. There is another 12-pin connector that I didn't see that I need to wire up some of the pins on to get it to work. The original console I have only contains reading lights, while the one I am installing has the trip computer, etc., a totally separate module, in addition to the lights. Thanks for your reply. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Wayne > Are you sure it needs more wire? CAN-Bus has been common for nearly 20 > years now, and cars blip network packets over power conductors, rather > than running separate conductors for every device. Even if it was > hard-wired, I doubt they would have two different harness stocked on a > 'line just for one optional feature. > > -w > > On 11/10/2012 6:21 PM, Pat Horne wrote: >> My 2006 Caravan is sitting in my shop and I am trying to replace the >> overhead lighting console with one that has the trip computer in it. I >> have all the mechanical parts needed, just need to run one wire to it. >> Anyone have a wiring diagram or at least color code for the one extra >> wire I need to run? I assume it runs to one of the circuits in the OBD >> II connector, but can't find anything on line about it. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Peace, >> Pat > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com > > > Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 10:21:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EFC2D0763 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:21:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702EE2D0614 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:21:20 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fl17so6787792vcb.14 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 09:22:35 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=vbO3YrsWYYmUOR6ZUJ0YTruagojgjcP2OyQtJ8bqP1A=; b=eFH/c6LS3Q0kyUZBvzczHNgoH5RaSdzB8kmDKSAr8jTIAKgi+JJPiMYqQ7cOhEITaI UZGajMSwqfE3ZeuU7CK9QOzKMBqGEpYP3CIo55nhBwq+HqCb/tfVN6iNW5HoRhxdN7Vw nGEEtf0U41X2QK+0wXyYCFbyaNxMAMtNWHauzct60eQc4O5L7YaEAEz8AskxZgAtz0Z2 4KmOgLH5SkLwbC2N+68mdfX4pZuzF9IgDP+TxSVxMJkkMnoFQDj2n+HoAln4novXPenJ ywCFc5/xYC4jqw97GoYEjkmTSJqnF8MK4oQtQ+Pw56265jKQJYzxVRM2mHsVQ65RY8oy dKOg== Received: by 10.52.36.235 with SMTP id t11mr17876928vdj.62.1352654555333; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 09:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 09:22:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:22:35 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net An entertaining article about the things people on this list often buy: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/business/hurricane-sandy-and-the-disaster-preparedness-economy.html Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 11:26:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91F72D08B8 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 11:26:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.32]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA38E2D0834 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 11:26:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.11]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id NJKf1k0080EPchoA3JTntf; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:27:47 +0000 Received: from [10.0.0.3] ([67.164.21.216]) by omta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id NJTm1k0094fjmw38MJTn7s; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:27:47 +0000 Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:27:44 -0800 From: Bob Spidell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Doug Braun References: Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who have no fuel??? On 11/11/2012 9:22 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > An entertaining article about the things people on this list often buy: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/business/hurricane-sandy-and-the-disaster-preparedness-economy.html > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell@comcast.net ******************************************************************* _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 12:25:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94582D08DF for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:25:56 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFD72D07CC for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:25:43 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fl17so6862838vcb.14 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 11:26:58 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=uQGRIkgBCEeejfX2LQjlK0ZVWAPpbTqI0s5IZPGEi7A=; b=PLy3aPRLb9OsDUfkoi9ZQGvMSZxb3hhRc8ofZVUsDpJnJJnwNF0ZKC4QlfM8ssQLjx p3l/04eYRRgE9hME9aEXZepQIr0TX7PLL1l9WDo58fnl0RDLTlTHXmDuGSY5cYVb+ILT pZf3L8SMiwLHLgnmAwFkq6j4JevjxBeeG97rwRzD0nLpcd+dy3kon/usGeLv1lNes27B vnwjTRqlkhyI+IiviFzFMQNjbum6EpG1FTeHZqoT/YqAAk1n6k3FKgvDut9kcwWE7zfl vRbNbEHsuHXOWp3P9YK+RvCf5liXqL/M/yPeXfgjusI7Dx5Fu6dKo/qfh90Z5K023tnP ZCdw== Received: by 10.52.22.72 with SMTP id b8mr18539292vdf.88.1352662018083; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 11:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 11:26:58 -0800 (PST) References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:26:58 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My generator is a Honda EU2000. I have to power only a couple of modern fridges, lights, and computer stuff (amazingly, we did not lose Verizon Fios service in any of the storms of the last couple of years). It was able to run ten hours on a gallon of gas! I had filled up all my cars before the storm, and I had enough gas in them to run the generator for a week. If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Bob Spidell wrote: > > Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who have no fuel??? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 13:00:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A89A2D08FA for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:00:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront3.g2host.com [208.42.184.241]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5DA2D07EF for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:59:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO HP62011) by mailfront3.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPA id 85691863; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:06 -0600 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: "Bob Spidell" , "Doug Braun" References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:08 -0600 Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I wonder if having one that runs on natural gas would be a better option than one that runs on gasoline. Or maybe one that runs on diesel as diesel is much easier for "long term emergency use only" storage. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Spidell Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:27 PM To: Doug Braun Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who have no fuel??? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 13:26:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD7B2D093E for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:26:05 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm20.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm20.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.91.90]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EC82D0164 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:19:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.91.70] by nm20.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2012 20:20:20 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.75] by tm10.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2012 20:20:20 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1012.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2012 20:20:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 10947 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Nov 2012 20:20:20 -0000 s=s1024; t=1352665220; bh=L/+b9Yw+bsMw3W9TcRfnyCdoJ0xjVI61/6nhlP+UvWM=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=I1pL+tYsDFyEagJ65Frapb4b0NBBngNKlqlB7F9S4R8Fmw7/PqBwWXdvcvf/Qerk+n/Z/9USIgkBuiQDEwLwYjVM2AUiHnur0LHDnu/Nu5yFBESTFmAhUQcwSk64gQbuQ/6aEv0PPp/Go0JYddPTLG/L+UW5lem1weua+lYm4Zk= s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Vz9q4ck7eg2X0ebHGYKAUj3FYhVnp+Bfv22d/6Cbubdan8ACFBTYAXeKqLyyJqRUcE3CHE1o9U39iDC7IxrGvrSLHpqUTr82qaxk2WxWQMx9A5kA9SCKm9SFxCSwZeGhB9xz5V3RKjMdN0fZ33AtcCaRhbmWt8E528iHUiInREc=; Received: from [128.125.95.134] by web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:20:19 PST LUlmIHlvdSBnZXQgb25lIG9mIHRoZXNlIGJpZyA2MDAwIHdhdHQgcG9ydGFibGUgZ2VuZXJhdG9ycywgeW91J2xsCnByb2JhYmx5IG5lZWQgYXQgbGVhc3QgMTIgZ2FsbG9ucyBwZXIgZGF5LCBzbwp5b3Ugd291bGQgYmUgc3BlbmRpbmcgYSBsb3Qgb2YgdGltZSBpbiBsaW5lIGF0IHRoZSBnYXMgc3RhdGlvbiAoaWYKaXQncyBldmVuIG9wZW4pLiAgQW5kIHRoYXQgbXVjaCBnYXMgZ2V0cyBleHBlbnNpdmU6CmF0IGxlYXN0ICQ0MCBwZXIgZGF5LgoKRG91ZwoKSGkgRG91ZywKCldlbGwsIHllcyBhbmQgbm8uICABMAEBAQE- References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:20:19 -0800 (PST) From: old dirtbeard To: Doug Braun , Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net -If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug Hi Doug, Well, yes and no. The fuel consumption ratings generally are compiled at 50% load, so if you are loading a 6 kW generator at 1/2 load, you will need to burn enough fuel to generate 3kW of power which would be more than a 50% load on a smaller generator. While larger generators probably will burn more fuel "idling" than a small one idling, with comparable levels of efficiency, they should not consume a great deal more fuel while generating similar output. I have this 4 kW Generac model that will run 10 hours @ 1/2 load on 4.5 gallons of fuel: http://www.generac.com/Portables/XG/Products/XG4000/ It can run all day on a tank at "normal" loads for me which are less than 1/2 load. I have been amazed at how little fuel it uses and do not fill the tank anymore as it takes so long to burn a tank that I worry about old gas (I do use Stabil). :-) An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional capacity if you need it. best, doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 14:01:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150502D099D for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm15.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (nm15.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.139.52.212]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDED2D08B4 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.52.195] by nm15.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2012 21:02:53 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.108] by tm8.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2012 21:02:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1013.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2012 21:02:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 49157 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Nov 2012 21:02:53 -0000 s=s1024; t=1352667773; bh=6oagv6g9esfAz7zwc3ReyAF6TF9bXTxHxj/NtzfeOhU=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=vWBaY6LtOxhuqCVlBoyRiZQi2Y/MStuc3JAQnr4Zdin/f3CZt8go6ytgivdRyyEmk/QWmEt9YzBzb6xmI99qSMePk2gKIQJYCN+sHiEXwJ9DYcycqT+6en2Arp1V8rGn3YCrEgCjon4MNThqBYO1DsUsIAhBM8GkVOYM8fyTfdE= s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=0oCIFWFD5ILE5D3EpVuWsgA7wXlh04/ALpmx0wAPALu614jLpwGrexqXhBVENzwHhcAuuNbTDmr3naZkH857bhX5AM1BYaZZ+IJN5Gn6WtogD47xP3VOXuWOO1krBUx9uZfaMYiO6/RBUHwzyMmiJJ3iEP8LcokkLx0edVjIHgU=; zRq0eu_dbGMHwaeGDIL5W9NfyI8o1MCfHbPQ3kSNPNhgg10kFn.TpPpJBWnN RHI9kzZ6jiwVCdV2NbCOdHdZflrYnWuCkjrl1lN0qsxKBJWn4j5YDn4RHlz0 NYbP4GA9cQEl9RaF8O99gw9UnffJloPucfqryGjTok6X37FEPOce3URdMCrT jXBqrIAfzj5HSB9AIXRmik0a6Eq.ezn5SYBwO080m41Cli5sNLlReaOb.Q63 quKLMLknP477P6.nYoyGLdqo4gTL_Group_HG2vnriydUowvXblapmV6GuLF c3xxXzoxJulC0ToozfWz_aMoBfdF1vidBXXX9yFoVtaRwY06aUkArMYnCMLs PrZ9X6SoOApyvUZgklGIQNgKFJvvHBouIC8jxps2dI4kCCKcBB1z3kCsy6iO l15BNqTFhCMSYQi6VAqPU9mJ0bSLMMAirMQIOkoaX0C35pXrz.70O7TGb63J bTBQoZZW0aSQ5uJCEVz2TsqH5tbjLwvSrapVyS1MTLGk.Vvsv4.U3fr5nj9p U8ODqcHLupZJHsz28CYBdlZvnDcVvO2CEYBFphOfbnC142slHjPCbLY6bsrc J9qSEniiGAYhLHnpjoHQToRliF705gfiA Received: from [128.125.95.134] by web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:02:53 PST SSBhbSBhY3R1YWxseSByZXBseWluZyB0byBteSBvd24gbWVzc2FnZSAoYWx3YXlzIGJhZCBiZWhhdmlvcikuCgpJIGxvb2tlZCB1cCB0aGUgY29uc3VtcHRpb24gcmF0aW5ncyBmb3IgdGhlIEVVMjAwMDoKClJBVEVEIEFDIE9VVFBVVDE2MDAgV0FUVFMgCkNPTlRJTlVPVVMgT1BFUkFUSU9OIFRJTUU0SFJTLiBAIFJBVEVEIExPQUQsIDkuNiBIUlMuIEAgMS80IExPQUQgIApTbyBpdCBzaG91bGQgYnVybiAxLjEgZ2FsbG9ucyBldmVyeSA0IGhvdXJzIGF0IDE2MDAgd2F0dHMgYW5kIDEuMSBnYWxsb25zIGV2ZXIBMAEBAQE- References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:02:53 -0800 (PST) From: old dirtbeard To: old dirtbeard , Doug Braun , Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I am actually replying to my own message (always bad behavior). I looked up the consumption ratings for the EU2000: RATED AC OUTPUT1600 WATTS CONTINUOUS OPERATION TIME4HRS. @ RATED LOAD, 9.6 HRS. @ 1/4 LOAD So it should burn 1.1 gallons every 4 hours at 1600 watts and 1.1 gallons every 9.6 hours at 400 watts That 4 kW Generac would burn 4.5 gals every 10 hours at 1800 watts. So, if my arithmetic is correct (and it very well may not be--someone should check it), the little Honda generates 5.8 kWh per gallon running at rated output and ~3.5 kWh per gallon at 1/4 load. The larger Generac generates 4 kWh per gallon at 1/2 load, somewhere between the two ratings (full and 1/4) for the Honda. It would appear my belief that consumption is directly related to output has some founding, it also would appear that for the Honda (and probably most generators), though, it would be best to try to size the generator to run toward it's rated output where it is more efficient. Of course there are noise, longevity, etc., considerations involved as well. best, doug ----- Original Message ---- From: old dirtbeard To: Doug Braun ; Shop-Talk Sent: Sun, November 11, 2012 12:27:17 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets -If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug Hi Doug, Well, yes and no. The fuel consumption ratings generally are compiled at 50% load, so if you are loading a 6 kW generator at 1/2 load, you will need to burn enough fuel to generate 3kW of power which would be more than a 50% load on a smaller generator. While larger generators probably will burn more fuel "idling" than a small one idling, with comparable levels of efficiency, they should not consume a great deal more fuel while generating similar output. I have this 4 kW Generac model that will run 10 hours @ 1/2 load on 4.5 gallons of fuel: http://www.generac.com/Portables/XG/Products/XG4000/ It can run all day on a tank at "normal" loads for me which are less than 1/2 load. I have been amazed at how little fuel it uses and do not fill the tank anymore as it takes so long to burn a tank that I worry about old gas (I do use Stabil). :-) An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional capacity if you need it. best, doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard@pacbell.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 14:16:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E552D09C2 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:16:22 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (out02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net [199.224.80.229]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15A62D0936 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:16:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net ([199.224.80.245]) by out02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2012 21:17:30 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-130-93.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.130.93]) by relay02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2B9634A0B4; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:17:29 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:17:52 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Arvid Jedlicka References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > An installed natural gas generator is always a better option if you > can afford it and natural gas is available...and doesn't stop. I > understand they have shut off a lot of the natural gas lines in New > Jersey due to widespread leaks. > > For years I used a big Hobart welder for my generator. I live in the > rural suburbs of Seattle and every few years we get some nasty > snowfalls that can take the power out for a week, and I live at the > tail end of a single-ended feed. The Hobart was noisy and thirsty, > but put out 8KW. A couple of years ago I upgraded to a pad mounted > propane setup, since we already had a 500 gallon propane tank for the > water heater and back-up furnace. It's very nice and I don't have to > worry about the gas company shutting off the main. Plus, with a wood > stove for primary heat in an emergency, the propane would last quite a > while. > > I originally considered diesel for same reasons you mentioned, but > they are very expensive and I really didn't want to store (or buy) 500 > gallons of diesel. On 11/11/2012 12:01 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I wonder if having one that runs on natural gas would be a better > option than one that runs on gasoline. Or maybe one that runs on > diesel as diesel is much easier for "long term emergency use only" > storage. > > -----Original Message----- From: Bob Spidell > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:27 PM > To: Doug Braun > Cc: Shop-Talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat > shop-related) gadgets > > Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who > have no fuel??? _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd@frontier.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 15:00:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D622D09BF for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 15:00:03 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f169.google.com (mail-ob0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C571D2D09B3 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:59:53 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ob0-f169.google.com with SMTP id lz20so1689519obb.14 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:09 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0AFE10acRH6wbn/Wf8T8e/KPEp5nyZOVF1gPUUsglpw=; b=wtcSjzjlhjjtlvnxlllbLCG1K2JU+OX13EnF6tHRAaikgeUXMeTbbw5x2ZiGj/kEnK EGbiztBNUNCMErcLSCZzQhFnTZHx7288R3GrLc7j7oavZ1EruM7bgBzRpbFnMU+tb+Og m0Umc1cqdTBbe0ZnTAqZNRIcVtHlKcSP1KcYgCVridMDpr8TmomQGA0V4DSVIhjdcdTN FuTYdFSL/iryuSLt3Sb8Y859gOlaaHu5X7vebKwa+vcDo4dSKIYW3LAafrPtYHfvn49C +aBhXIK1+Iq9so7yGFJTVWpJ9fgied2aaw94CxaR4xumB4WOR/o0FmQkwQhODF/pwyCS 0NXQ== Received: by 10.182.131.37 with SMTP id oj5mr13579385obb.54.1352671269032; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.93.35 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:08 -0800 (PST) References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:01:08 -0600 From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" To: old dirtbeard Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Farms and sububan acreage operators have a good resource available to them if they already have any size of a diesel tractor with a power take off shaft. One can buy PTO operated generators for cheap and the tractors are so efficient that the fuel cost is reasonable . . Don't hold me liable but I think I did the math and could generate 4.5 KW for about half a gallon of diesel per hour. (tractor rated at 17.5 horsepower hours per gallon) Diesel tractors are amazingly efficient at low load. Massey Ferguson had a state fair stunt where one was to guess how much fuel a 60 HP diesel tractor would burn in a DAY at no-load idle . .it was about a quart! Tony _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 15:16:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DF22D02D6 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 15:16:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1AC2D09FC for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 15:12:30 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fl17so6961418vcb.14 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:13:46 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=DI/BJ6015sp2Sov0SCqbCEZewWaF46kUwkhvATcyK0k=; b=BOKPEiLzh+T2DZ99GKaxST+6vZ+uoCUrXJpeL33Dolh3lgQlwIVScA/HMzoXJ9pMd1 rAfwsYgMNzPbvk9tO26U+Do+blxHvdOnNN9Nt+zvII2y9eX/1mIBPp2NUOElPmQUBwcz bIZI8iQjAVLdDxc5vBfr1UryP0VrXRHghoqA/JDPhe4UWinhxIsjQK+bny5VumNrLXrV UpupAN0uPRtnA9YkZKNH4peJ6I9LUv8zGYh1HkhbA8Lkiy4ouYnDxR8yzL+OLR9NBNAK KVtQ6z+1Nhr+RsJs1ucLc86tMoFecjexpO13mceMuD7ZcI8B1Jg03BS2nUunHFkZsMYy zu/w== Received: by 10.52.36.235 with SMTP id t11mr18747753vdj.62.1352672026332; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:13:46 -0800 (PST) References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 17:13:46 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: old dirtbeard Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The nice thing about the EU2000 (and one reason it is expensive) it that it is inverter-based. This means that the engine is not required to constantly run at 3600 RPM to produce 60 Hz AC. When the power draw is low, it throttles down quite a bit. As a bonus, it gets even quieter. They make a 6500 watt inverter generator, but it costs a fortune. Doug On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 4:02 PM, old dirtbeard wrote: > I am actually replying to my own message (always bad behavior). > > I looked up the consumption ratings for the EU2000: > > RATED AC OUTPUT1600 WATTS > CONTINUOUS OPERATION TIME4HRS. @ RATED LOAD, 9.6 HRS. @ 1/4 LOAD > So it should burn 1.1 gallons every 4 hours at 1600 watts and 1.1 gallons every > 9.6 hours at 400 watts > > That 4 kW Generac would burn 4.5 gals every 10 hours at 1800 watts. > > So, if my arithmetic is correct (and it very well may not be--someone should > check it), the little Honda generates 5.8 kWh per gallon running at rated output > and ~3.5 kWh per gallon at 1/4 load. > > The larger Generac generates 4 kWh per gallon at 1/2 load, somewhere between the > two ratings (full and 1/4) for the Honda. > > It would appear my belief that consumption is directly related to output has > some founding, it also would appear that for the Honda (and probably most > generators), though, it would be best to try to size the generator to run toward > it's rated output where it is more efficient. Of course there are noise, > longevity, etc., considerations involved as well. > best, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 11 17:24:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B588A2D0A6E for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 17:24:09 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f169.google.com (mail-ob0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668142D0980 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 17:23:58 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ob0-f169.google.com with SMTP id lz20so1762639obb.14 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:25:14 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=HXzGBQpr91fO5sYzwa4qt9RFP2CDBQUhCle7z6jAU8Y=; b=w8HqwzQtETATiP75fFJ+sF7BYz6eiiYweSh5u1Hl177Yz2tCLVSwmjia+JB4ggLuFh jmm3L7lwVYEm002SgsLMDVDtTCrOhqxSyOZaHA5EYre3aJSoHOJ+tJmuTvM3KMrUh0Jy T4mkglJyqqUSIrk02AfFc+d6umi/fUkTF5f+PbvDRpwz1/IxMW49Cm0hcnSg/eqpjXnH VImUEXijSfzwe/bImK8MbpnHbKD+Ma6JdoMlpsao0WydBWT6dsKFMjf+pAck4P1HumLx IiUfvVakHHEY9s9U9qgsgihcYeYOIRI//WqW28Sxf+J1dZeq//50HB44/ltGOM8YoBhn y+QQ== Received: by 10.182.41.6 with SMTP id b6mr14084931obl.23.1352679914668; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.93.35 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:25:14 -0800 (PST) References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:25:14 -0600 From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 4:07 PM, *John Innis* wrote: > Nothing cheap about a PTO generator. They cost almost as much as a > similar rated unit with a gas motor. And you have to have a tractor with > sufficient PTO power to run it. > > *Well, yes you DO sorta need a tractor for a pto generator(!) but a > quick Google search found a $900 7.1KW pto unit and I would personally > rather have that sitting around on standby that a highpriced GASOLINE unit > (Honda 6.KW @ $4000) which will cost much more to operate. You choose.* > *Tony in Texas* ** _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Nov 12 22:52:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45002D13D0 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:52:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm4-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm4-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.138]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3695C2D13C0 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:52:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.198] by nm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2012 05:53:14 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.243] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2012 05:53:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp114.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2012 05:53:14 -0000 s=s1024; t=1352785994; bh=ZrrlUJwID81wDVAKL9PDSGuw8WOSo72zPyD3tjzmh+Q=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:X-MimeOLE; b=zVhvWNzgxXcZ5Wg3d0yJIp4VTmA7km7isKsDJZMwMhXY5IWLUJKbZlu42DIpFDKHUmXDQr5gahiCfCW+u0b+etvxw96e9+cfCjkKLGz6AEAXxFMjeUpalNt+q2ToC9cwc6e4m0fMjOR7HlRzB1ZEJ0rPZBKPFeAzpaqXcV+/njQ= mdqa5Eh6Jg7IvrpttFQq9pv9GsC143k6K7P_4ekzavXdnZ3H9P5Jz2DaBeQX GMtW07tTd9iOXXgdYE.l233XH_QE35HIosuI1a1MjW5OkioZMZfC1ohEN0HZ 9UCEtdcaThwhIpvpVlEtH0EVqBGlSzvSFtuip_xmXFpAAkLn9avVsrLW41ky OhP3om73DugDBDXajOX7tKM7g9CTN1y5KachQzhXR8h98BO_aw173go5k4fx QVCXJxNzFB6.d2RDnBbb7WX1zSop_j8uWRvpOmYiJ_wVkZdOSn5ajzzLZBIJ bcApmtFCDbTmCIjDTy4vunfOD_SwIAZ.jfRE_icdrCRsYrKS5mJEc1QhnNWM LCQwYurYQOhfC18q2ugOGmsA2zjpSQ2CEcZRVvxhQntl2L8cjX.chbauBEr9 M4iwMeYVjzbCuPmYzgq.G0DjTssaAmURz3uEe9j08QMM0j8jGtDVOXgEHnfQ HyOb77PR0kxrRmJxUT32Qan9hJHII4OkS1aHiAkvFJE7Q5dijGVPpq2TG4xk stRgfQUhDfAGHz4aCYVElyIJazL_PwPMLoW3M.eJSFO0- Received: from EntCentPC (jibjib@71.212.6.162 with login) by smtp114.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2012 21:53:14 -0800 PST From: "Jack Brooks" To: "'Shop-Talk'" References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:53:13 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3ASwFFTY7ya3CyTnqFIL3j4s2Q4wBFlzEw Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional > capacity if you need it. We have a 7,500 watt generator. I don't recall the numbers, but it'll run far longer than I thought it would on it's 10 gallon tank. The nice part is that we run as much of the house as we need to and still run a few extension cords to the neighbors. I only keep 10 gallons in cans, but I have 10 in my Triumph TR3 and 13 or so in my Triumph TR8. Last winter we lost power for a week, right after switching to Dish. That was nice, as Comcast was down. We lose power every few years for a few days at a clip. Having a nice big generator is nice to bridge the gap. I also like to be able to run my welder in the field too. Jack Seattle-ish -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of old dirtbeard Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:20 PM To: Doug Braun; Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets -If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug Hi Doug, Well, yes and no. The fuel consumption ratings generally are compiled at 50% load, so if you are loading a 6 kW generator at 1/2 load, you will need to burn enough fuel to generate 3kW of power which would be more than a 50% load on a smaller generator. While larger generators probably will burn more fuel "idling" than a small one idling, with comparable levels of efficiency, they should not consume a great deal more fuel while generating similar output. I have this 4 kW Generac model that will run 10 hours @ 1/2 load on 4.5 gallons of fuel: http://www.generac.com/Portables/XG/Products/XG4000/ It can run all day on a tank at "normal" loads for me which are less than 1/2 load. I have been amazed at how little fuel it uses and do not fill the tank anymore as it takes so long to burn a tank that I worry about old gas (I do use Stabil). :-) An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional capacity if you need it. best, doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Nov 23 23:47:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B643E435BA for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 23:47:07 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041B943560 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 23:46:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.164]) by out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 24 Nov 2012 06:47:35 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-149-114.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.149.114]) by relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CA1665F98 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 06:47:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 22:47:37 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I must not get out enough. I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper. I never knew they existed. I understand how they work, and I guess if natural gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution looking for a problem. When my (12 year old) propane heater craps out we'll be getting another propane heater... Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 24 10:01:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD550437ED for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:01:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f175.google.com (mail-wi0-f175.google.com [209.85.212.175]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3ABC437EC for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:01:14 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id hm11so1867013wib.2 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:01:50 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=okhrK+D8XRH7Yt7I4PLhOtCU39LbAywjW6jZhRMtM7E=; b=pDJVyMn80GPK/LeOU08mUA+lvgzfGXq5EJLk6HgbJiFQXpKY2tWMNGsMoB0BQy6nHp GofD6Rh9YMXJC4QhymGCRexT2J0ccvlQ+ploVWm1qBjMifaXIcV8bTislQ4qwCV8yNbW pje6MIu/Qjam13QQ1w/DI7UlmKn8JdHBcBAmdr6cEnt4ZywdmR+FH1LslFsEob37PI1W 0YJWXe6VLkGgkYv/NHr3so2bzKFnu+t/QUaxtDi3jz7+LaZIAxxI54FUSEPek2U1V3TY Hld/HWZThithL5t91G+2aBt5b6OCyeV0/nVRmjsO7UyLMbXVnz8OCZkFuEMsbLHo5ZAN DVmA== Received: by 10.180.85.194 with SMTP id j2mr2468677wiz.12.1353776510521; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.80.197 with HTTP; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:01:50 -0800 (PST) References: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:01:50 -0600 From: David Scheidt To: Dave C Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Dave C wrote: > I must not get out enough. I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper. I > never knew they existed. I understand how they work, and I guess if natural > gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they > might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution > looking for a problem. Well, they're in range of 250% efficient, so for straight out replacing a standard electric water heater the pay back period is somewhere around 3 years. Depends on your electric rates, of course, and your usage. Also depends on climate: if you're somewhere like Florida where you're likely going to be paying to air condition air much of the year, you get a double bonus, since the heat moved into hot water is heat the air conditioner doesn't have to deal with. If you're in Alaska, it probably doesn't make any sense at all. If you're looking at replacing a gas heater with one of these, the payback is longer. I don't think anyone makes a residential heat-pump with gas backing, so you go from a relatively cheap heat source to a more expensive one. There are add on things, and heat pump/gas hybrids exist for commercial operations. The management company my coop uses has told us if we replace the hot water boilers with a heat pump system, we'd pay back the capital costs in between two and three years, and book a savings of a few thousand dollars a year after that. (We have common hot water, paid for by the association, and people use a lot of it. ) Given the expected life of the system is a few decades (current system was installed in 1959, and works just fine), that's a substantial amount of savings. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 24 11:05:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFD1437F2 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:05:01 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f169.google.com (mail-ye0-f169.google.com [209.85.213.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7EE437EA for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:04:49 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f169.google.com with SMTP id j12so1515575yeg.14 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:05:26 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:mime-version:from:to:subject:importance:date:in-reply-to :references:content-type; bh=ye3ikvW9so3zOCp9CF8BFoy9H5P/ATs0/N7dqH1xqww=; b=ePpt62tVfENdbVvk6OnAreiHaz0REIXHpAZGMeDPR6wvG9VIGPnIP76W/7zv6X4HY2 fBHp4R/zJ13M0yfiRa7viPR94pr0kz0OQ3WN5/tkMH9t2FsQC7whp9C3u1A4CMlRh2Z3 a0R/v+7P5f6EZw6Wl3DqrGMS2q+CSkPx7Pr+aNtW3vC5jr6I4i/+0ag3D3v0XjsS6JOV +2ZNZYcbcnkxUbhSgRmZQIsQ+2PU65AjTYw6t73+NTNqcflNR+VXeKj9qiWy4+hZMy5P MKFnvYZHSBWqcV+KkHltiLxGYjjXGg5CcK2ZYJKz937NzpLHruSbuq7Udlm0c1aiptSo aiYw== Received: by 10.236.134.49 with SMTP id r37mr7502281yhi.11.1353780326312; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:05:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from LatitudeE6400 (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k49sm10127980yhj.13.2012.11.24.10.05.08 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:05:25 -0800 (PST) From: To: "=?utf-8?Q?Shop-talk@autox.team.net?=" , =?utf-8?Q?Dave_C?= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 18:05:07 +0000 References: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?Heat_pump_water_heaters=3F?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I looked at them, and they (kind of) make sense for us because of a combination of factors: 1) No natural gas where I live. You can get propane, but itbs expensive. 2) Fairly steep electric rates. 3) The water heater is in the garage. I live in Florida. Ibve gotten fairly far along in the bhow do I economically put a/c in the garageb process. This would help somewhat. But so far I can only get them for something like $1200, and therebs noting wrong with my old water heater (yet, knock on wood). The water heater in the old house died, and I looked at solar first, just because it wasnbt too much more expensive and the payback is better. I think theybd make more sense if you lived in Arizona or south Florida--where I live wanting to a/c the garage is only a nine-month-per-year thing. The other three months it can get chilly and then itbd make no sense at all. If you live somewhere where you never use a heater at all, you could stick it in the house and itbd be great. But Ibm not excited about having the water heater ever work against the house heater, and itbd be less efficient in the garage in winter, and thatbs exactly when you want a water heater to get better, not worse. But during the summer, when the garage will get to 95 degrees and stay there for months at a time, yeah, it should do well. Ibm still up on the fence about how to do this right. Ibm leaning towards a hybrid solar/tankless or solar/heat pump now. Scott From: Dave C Sent: bNovemberb b24b, b2012 b1b:b47b bAM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters? I must not get out enough. I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper. I never knew they existed. I understand how they work, and I guess if natural gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution looking for a problem. When my (12 year old) propane heater craps out we'll be getting another propane heater... Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Nov 24 11:17:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920BB43816 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:17:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gg0-f169.google.com (mail-gg0-f169.google.com [209.85.161.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56808437EF for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:16:25 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gg0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u4so520631ggl.14 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:17:02 -0800 (PST) s=20120113; h=message-id:mime-version:from:to:subject:importance:date :content-type; bh=YIjAgbNbn5c+eymRgOu9v42f9xMeitOXqLuqW8+uA/E=; b=QFd6uPr9ZXMKwQ7ycZhdYjkfBf6pvOY6jVW9F8SjeAr+MMNTRiKtml3bXMd/Md6SWP xX3pNR/of1ibY5ixMqxV64F48hn30NVp1AUFkYiBKRciY6XWAq4PHQ9cqmx2vnbqAUub OTqzBQNrJKX5GFq8y+4yabOy95yPVah2cmgOSGfVLwc6SP3S7lFhTOQD0R3Gdph1qWC3 5hjiJ9XlsOK+my14U2SbN0FnPcScI2VFi42ZHX0kE94KlFTV4488Eo9fhSoCnGYzKhY3 B1fV17xeHPhDBf+ZPfaWmuQIzSKEnJGmsS5GlSDdUlRUet2HT1+NbQuskaLwbwy+H5Ou 7/iw== Received: by 10.236.117.143 with SMTP id j15mr7306032yhh.79.1353781022552; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:17:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from LatitudeE6400 (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z65sm10140976yhe.22.2012.11.24.10.17.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:17:02 -0800 (PST) From: To: "=?utf-8?Q?shop-talk@autox.team.net?=" Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 18:17:00 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?Entirely_not_shop_related=2C_but=2E=2E=2E?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You guys are geniuses, and I want a good answer. I have two computers, a Dell and an HP. The Dell picked up some nasty script things and I canbt get rid of them. I like overkill, so I want to format the hard drive and install Windows 8 over it. The HP I donbt use. It has an SSD in it. It seems like a waste to just have it sitting in a laptop I never use. Ibd like to take the SSD out of the HP and stick it in the Dell, and install Windows 8 on the SSD. I want nothing thatbs currently on the SSD. I just want Windows 8, and thatbs it. Ibd like to take the perfectly good HD out of the Dell and stick it in the HP. Same story with the Dell HD--I want nothing thatbs currently on it, and in fact would like to totally wipe it to kill off whatever malware is living on it. I have purchased Windows 8 Pro and installed it on the Dell already. So the platter HD has Win8 and is in the Dell. Ibd like to end up with the SSD in the Dell with Win8, and the platter HD in the HP, and I donbt really care if itbs got an OS on it at all--O use it so infrequently that the next time I need it Ibll buy Win8 online from MS and install it then. So...can yball walk me through how to do that? Misc. stuff that might be good to know: the drives are different capacities (I think), and Ibve tried to use a utility like EaseUS in the past and failed miserably. Can I just take the SSD from the HP, slide it in the Dell, install Win8 and thatbs that? Maybe put the platter HD then in the HP and download another license for Win8 from MS and thatbs that? The only reason that makes me think I canbt do this is that the Dell seems to have Dell-specific drivers on it that survived the Win8 installation, and that makes me think theybre important and that I need them and my plan to just slap the SSD in it might be over-simplifying things. So...can anyone tell me how to get the SSD into the Dell with the bare minimum on it I need to have it work? I just want Win8 and whatever drivers I absolutely need--all the files I needed from it are backed up on a separate drive. I could even just ignore putting the platter HD in the HP for now. I could just physically install it and fool with it another time. Hopefully I typed that in a way thatbs understandable. Thanks for the help, and after I finish this, I can go install the new shower in the garage. And then put in a new pump int he washing machine. Yay. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 25 17:32:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971214384D for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:32:09 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mania.lunarmania.com (mania.lunarmania.com [67.210.98.240]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194C043841 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:31:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from 99-7-68-55.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net ([99.7.68.55]:64336 helo=[192.168.1.101]) by mania.lunarmania.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Tcmcd-00051c-1w for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:32:27 -0800 From: Bob Nogueira Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:32:34 -0600 To: Shop Talk with any abuse report bob@texmog.com Subject: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The tap calls for drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill the hole just a tad smaller? If so how much? Thanks Bob Nogueira (" Mr Gaskell, how much is a tad?". -- " more than a smidgen and less than a bit") ----The Patio Garage. 1963 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 25 19:03:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FE043858 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:03:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com (mail-ie0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2308643836 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:03:10 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id c14so2444610ieb.14 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:03:40 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=zM8KxdeFzP7+YK2/KeRlHM6gOWm1Zuo7F+zQ7HPGCiU=; b=NM2iRz5xQ1oljo++fUrYJZwFpyQb2K/2ueTPJ4RFVXOy+bzjtdTT3dy93b7FltRdod Hi9G8DwPfB2hT6886RAg+JFlVD6rm2uPItuyF5gbGuapJVm+rzzRnPq3/G/vo5m8pmiy XhtL5K60bt1VsrkJzoBWo8NNih3+4rnziLxCPv3xX/OxERnppVmUmTGLU+/Mezj783uu 2ovRga0L/dN1tszd8QySpgxXpoQJ27+YqsT1bTinEGcHd/rIbZkEIy+2Y4ixA7I1zXZw RO4nOlm08FiGyM2b7eBpZJ8cGByqirurbuscCjIdK0YMKFBZcyRQVNyHLTDVlL6Aa3yU BmIQ== Received: by 10.50.57.133 with SMTP id i5mr9449384igq.67.1353895420817; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.69.198 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:03:40 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:03:40 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: Bob Nogueira Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Last one I did (in a TR6 transmission case) I drilled the hole 21/64. Worked just fine for me... Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Bob Nogueira wrote: > I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The tap calls for > drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill the hole just a > tad smaller? If so how much? > > Thanks Bob Nogueira > > (" Mr Gaskell, how much is a tad?". -- " more than a smidgen and less than a > bit") > ----The Patio Garage. 1963 > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 25 21:07:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7BF4384D for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:07:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mailout17.yourhostingaccount.com (mailout17.yourhostingaccount.com [65.254.253.137]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7034243850 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:50:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailscan11.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.15.11] helo=mailscan11.yourhostingaccount.com) by mailout17.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1Tcpio-0003oJ-1c for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:51:02 -0500 Received: from impout02.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.55.2] helo=impout02.yourhostingaccount.com) by mailscan11.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1Tcpin-00080I-Ng; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:51:01 -0500 Received: from webmail10.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.16.10]) by impout02.yourhostingaccount.com with NO UCE id U3r11k00B0D1ajN013r1Gx; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:51:01 -0500 a=GYzHc3mh05v8unprsQ0nVQ==:17 a=Q7zus9ReCAYA:10 a=I8UAsZWAG7gA:10 a=wg63zuhbB7gA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=yCwGVx20AAAA:8 a=ObD0-6JFAAAA:8 a=pcKsPFcvTPsA:10 a=tBQY2mK_K3i4V6g6CrwA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=0YmFfWKhO/n0x5ScFAFiQg==:117 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=email.accountsupport.com) by webmail10.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1Tcpi8-0006Ws-3Q; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:50:20 -0500 Received: from 69.180.140.196 (SquirrelMail authenticated user greg@gelhar.com) by email.accountsupport.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:50:20 -0500 References: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:50:20 -0500 From: greg@gelhar.com To: "Bob Nogueira" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.19 Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Looks like you ar installing a 5/16-24 Helicoil. Use the 21/64 drill. Trust the engineers that designed them. Greg G. Osseo, MN > I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The tap calls for > drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill the hole just > a > tad smaller? If so how much? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 25 21:21:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF2643859 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:21:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601A040EBF for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:57:10 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=I8UAsZWAG7gA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=pcKsPFcvTPsA:10 a=MGcIuOU_NJUTBMssDUMA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55000] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id CB/43-20885-3B8E2B05; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 03:57:39 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Shop Talk'" Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:57:43 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3LbZLlwty30kt9TAWIKZSHdprzYwAHFW4w Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The > tap calls for > drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill > the hole just a tad smaller? If so how much? I don't think it matters much. The tap seems to ream the hole out if it is undersize. I've even been known not to drill, if the hole is completely skinned out (and the base metal is soft). -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Nov 25 21:51:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00ED043869 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:51:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F242940ECA for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:30:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:31:10 -0800 id 00000000002800C7.0000000050B2F08E.00004B63 Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:30:37 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <3fb6f9888dbace284cd9be4ffe3ff726.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 11/25/2012 7:50 PM, greg@gelhar.com wrote: > Looks like you ar installing a 5/16-24 Helicoil. Use the 21/64 drill. > Trust the engineers that designed them. ...with a brief moment of consideration as to whether one really wants a fine thread in aluminum in the first place, and whether it wouldn't be possible to use 5/16-18 instead. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive