From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 07:49:51 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF0640414 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 07:49:51 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp003.apm-internet.net (smtp003.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.52]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA9140403 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 07:32:03 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 47780 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2012 14:31:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.103?) (86.140.231.231) by smtp003.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 2 Dec 2012 14:31:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 14:31:40 +0000 From: Nick Brearley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one. Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible. Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond. Thanks Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 08:21:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C410B4041B for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:21:14 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com (mail-ie0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE6340403 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 07:57:31 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id c14so3522045ieb.14 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 06:56:53 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=cWjyRBNMCtBf3u+bkw/CuuiAKYwFLND30wLBJ3g3YqQ=; b=AQwNK6hvVRtIut+lsrwOiJawlKyXOn+EShpJix5Aze98UvgAQzeEOs3oK9BBMFuFE1 dGCLWtQBZly4xzmXIDuNQfnkiiCdnCB4AV17oSHoqLhqIpVLVOz3lVRzzYlHA0Kx4W88 LvnDgb6pNv/GdcXifeR6ASMjP1L7gL6GmhsOtu3+fXbj0xUDcFuLE+rm/+fWvM5uJD/A 2/MXZ+RiNH6o9Km9QKHhUxtfZ4z0nM95dx3ECr1EDakK+RG1p5JMloypt7o6yCrIhdJy 3hDIg286/Mpp8aJEgUt0lakLC/BReLcf4DLcn9qQCc5GtGckP6LcEQCJXVECKFgb+39M P0XA== Received: by 10.50.56.139 with SMTP id a11mr3830691igq.3.1354460212985; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 06:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.69.198 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 06:56:52 -0800 (PST) References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 09:56:52 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: Nick Brearley Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Nick Brearley wrote: > Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one. > > Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates > National kept on coming up significantly cheaper It's been a while since I rented from National specifically, but I don't recall any problems generally. But here's some tips for renting a car in the US: Take pictures all around the car, both before and after, including the odometer. Keep 'em for six months, at least. Make sure all the existing damage is noted on the rental form - don't take someone's word for it that "it's too small to worry about". If you fill the car up before you return it, make sure to keep the receipt for six months. Some rental companies like to bill you later for damage and fuel, long after you've returned home. If you didn't do it, you want to have something to show them. Enjoy your trip! Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 08:22:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E87640535 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:22:23 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.137]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3282540407 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:05:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.198] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2012 15:05:43 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.175] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2012 15:05:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2012 15:05:43 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354460743; bh=McqyVMxJpNLF3E/d4GLdvcT/2Pa/LxBY7YntD42dNB0=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=VhBOCA6GH1ALCAgtM7FvlLJsKKKobrX6tP6NrEgqwIwUatS6UmzdUylPRtWJslZN4gQbuPVI2Dpt2Sx+DegqSM6P0W2TsGNt3wiUuIfeJLJ+10+f2iDTywHiVbk62v6k+zr2qqXHR99KmCNimKVUnZAbT4w5Y9K1aNJIlA+wYaU= N4sAt8DIG.C_6fhlA57VACqOTmkuDgHADHslwRVOY3nGzbL4UvJs.tnlvvPY KF4nSkUy.dyBowAAK9QiQd8Ik9LYswnlLtDB7kQoaBqOR_eslW8t16K07rJL D2EYHTPc015sEFUfhUuMDCjOt13sGKVi6xKpBJ9Ml92Y.eZfZPw0SF_xve4U 1i34qsi4.V6F1QbZQnLoL4.zB6iM7p5.cZqeTv.LVZhd0V3q4FbDIPTNmyM7 Xg3MNgDG3DHY8o.CfFzl1.pzo2UEcoJnI8KlaG7G7qWd0361nuJyQfc9tuGh qwNJGt7Zn04aI9psle0w7ZjFxfcu1DVbwqFbkSkLa6k0w8xAYwi3x0Fcg9fa Jdxq3BPzaz_xz0Ypvlwv1HRGS4QORdZW2KKGn54A1phf0Eiq7YY70s5j9RJu KvAZmratwDUyVom.LV.mrg_sGHYsQow-- Received: from Karl (kvacek@75.21.94.211 with login) by smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 02 Dec 2012 07:05:43 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'Nick Brearley'" , References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 09:05:24 -0600 Thread-Index: AQKhDtqb9rS/VjmnGEfWjWXbyFOttpZfHPjA Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I always preferred National years ago, but have only rented cars a very few times in the past decade, so can't be of much help with them. When Jill and I went to California last June, we looked thoroughly at all the car rentals available, and ended up with Hertz, after buying a one-year AAA membership. We did want a convertible, one-way, and took it for 10 days which meant it was more expensive, but still, after trying to find and add all the hidden costs into the others, we thought it was the best deal. And lots less worries than with some of the bargain companies, some of which have almost no good reviews. Shop-talk content - on the trip, we picked up a bulky and breakable part for my Cagiva Gran Canyon in Sunnyvale ;-) Have a good trip! Karl -----Original Message----- From: Nick Brearley Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one. Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible. Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond. Thanks Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 08:46:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE1A40433 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:46:56 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc4-s2.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc4-s2.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.204]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4059F40407 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:25:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from COL115-W61 ([65.55.34.200]) by col0-omc4-s2.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 2 Dec 2012 07:24:50 -0800 From: Jim Stone To: , "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 09:24:50 -0600 References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> FILETIME=[2BD342F0:01CDD0A1] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I rent from National whenever I travel on business, which is fairly frequently. Now, in all honesty, that is because my company has a contract with Enterprise and my two choices are Enterprise or National (Enterprise also owns Alamo, but they aren't part of our preferred rates). Still, I have never had a problem with them. They are quick and efficient (I skip the Enterprise brand because they are more geared for less frequent renters and it takes longer to get the car and go) and I do like the "choose your own car" option. It would be more fun if the cars were more exciting, but it is nice to be able to pick a car based on my needs and feelings at the time. All that said, like anything that relies on a retail network, I have found that some of the locations are better than others. But, the company is certainly solid in my experience. > Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:31:40 +0000 > From: nick@landform.co.uk > To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental > > Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one. > > Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental > rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even > after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various > insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing > with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer > websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible. > > Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting > sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond. > > Thanks > > Nick Brearley > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99@msn.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 08:50:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09034065B for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:50:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C7840403 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:46:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD11D282061 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 07:46:32 -0800 (PST) content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= groupwbench.org; bh=V9DiJb4QrPvIVvRhUn4/4BYowdo=; b=XZl1OB7GwhH4 XcYnLuS6fde+zilstLP9/E78sqzTh47Iv6NYplP7c65zsAPGQdcnvcOSkt3IakMo Qo2JgtLkPyc0DWoF0rMXzEMaYfoQ7xC1GZNlGZ/1RDhnNNIdfnNaH7QbfAhNcMpS UsUAmuBmj/2L6AWEOAgMuzdV4vweZgU= Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-98-118-112-94.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.112.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5CCFA282024 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 07:46:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 10:46:20 -0500 References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net There has been a lot of consolidation in the rental car business and to me it seems most mid-level companies are the same. I haven't had any issues with any of them in well over a decade. Enterprise owns National so you have a good service area should anything happen. Here in the USA, almost every credit card company will have insurance coverage securing the car if you use the card, and they probably mate that coverage to the renter's policy for their own car, which may have gaps/overlaps with a non-USA policy. That's some fine print worth reading, and check with your car insurance co to see what they cover for rentals. jim On Dec 2, 2012, at 9:31 AM, Nick Brearley wrote: > Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one. > > Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible. > > Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond. > > Thanks > > Nick Brearley > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf@groupwbench.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 10:29:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08444041E for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 10:29:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204E640407 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 10:26:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qB2HQH3q014241 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:26:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 12:26:10 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental (and how to destroy a rental car, and why to never buy one) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/2/2012 9:56 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > It's been a while since I rented from National specifically, but I > don't recall any problems generally. But here's some tips for renting > a car in the US: I despise rental car companies. Some ding you for little junk, others could care less. Prices vary widely, and reservations are just a tease. Back early-mid 1990s, I had to displeasure of getting one while my DD was in the shop. It was a POS Dodge "Sundance" or some similar garbage, built poorly on what was probably their "K car" chassis of yore. It was -20 dF in Ohio, and roommate & I had gone to grocery in it. The passenger door refused to latch. So... he opened it again, and tugged harder. Still no latch. Repeat 3rd time, and pull pretty hard (but not really abusive) -- BANG!!! - window glass shatters out and flies all over us. Still no latch. Pissed now ... 4th try and REALLY slam the F*** out of it, finally it latches. Drive home with -20 wind blasting in. Returned next day. Tried to be nice. "Maybe assembly line put it in wrong so there was some pre-stress on the glass, contributing to the fracture that should not have happened??" Dumb c*** says "Nonsense, that is a BRAND NEW CAR, It CAN NOT HAVE *ANYTHING* WRONG WITH IT." Excuse me, it's a Chrysler POS, it's pretty much guaranteed to have some, if not multiple things "wrong" with it when brand new. Stupid, ignorant, b***h. Advised I'll be charged for the damage, and possible down time on the car. They give me an even uglier version of the same POS Dodge, a "Shadow" or some garbage with a faux hood scoop and asinine decals on this god-awfully underpowered 2 door poser secretary's "sports car", so tacky that I'm embarrassed to even be seen in. Gonna charge me, eh? Proceed to start doing neutral drops and brake launches everywhere I go, with what little torque the POS can muster. Junk OEM tires and sub zero temps help get some really abusive wheel hop and tire spin. After 4 days, the rental is up and the transmission is making some BAD noises. I limp it back ever so gently to the office to finish our ordeal. I am VERY sure the next person who drove it, or tried to accelerate to highway speed had the transaxle explode. MwuHaHaHa! "new car -- can't have anything wrong with it." Was sent a bill for $200 window glass replacement, and $500 lost rental time. I responded with quotes from three different glass companies saying they could have replaced it same day, on site, for well under $100. Never heard back from them :) -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 12:44:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C1540418 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:44:57 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77A840407 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:41:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 11:41:40 -0800 id 00000000002800AF.0000000050BBAEF4.00004C2A Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 11:41:08 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> <50BB8F32.8010206@xxiii.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental (and how to destroy a rental car, and why to never buy one) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Returned next day. Tried to be nice. "Maybe assembly line put it in > wrong so there was some pre-stress on the glass, contributing to the > fracture that should not have happened??" Dumb c*** says "Nonsense, that > is a BRAND NEW CAR, It CAN NOT HAVE *ANYTHING* WRONG WITH IT." Excuse > me, it's a Chrysler POS, it's pretty much guaranteed to have some, if > not multiple things "wrong" with it when brand new. Stupid, ignorant, > b***h. I've never had a truly BAD customer service experience with a car-rental firm, but then maybe my expectations aren't very high to begin with. As far as the mechanical side of the new-rental-car experience... I flew into SeaTac once, maybe fifteen years ago. Late at night, last thing they had left was a Plymouth minivan. Brand new, 30 miles on the odo. Okay, fine, motor off to Bellevue. Next night I drive into Seattle for dinner with some friends, and on the way back across the floating bridge I notice that the temperature gauge is periodically bouncing off the hot peg and coming back down to normal. It's binary - ping, pong. Common now for temp gauges to be little more than three- or four-stage idiot lights, with some combination of cold, normal, and fried and little or nothing in between, but I hadn't experienced too many of those back then. At any rate, it took a whole ten seconds to decide: a) It's still running b) I've got ten miles to go to the hotel c) What happens to it after that I could give an airborne fornicative act about. d) It's pouring rain e) The last thing I want to be doing is troubleshooting this POS by the side of the road Ran fine back to the hotel. Next morning I opened the radiator cap. The radiator was clean as the day it was manufactured. As in apparently never touched by coolant. Called up...think it was Thrifty. "Oh, you can take it to our office over there, they'll get you something else." So, after a few more words about "Let me write down your name please, and just a reminder that it's not my fault if it blows up on the way, you've been warned", I did. And it got there. Gave me a little Dodge convertible IIRC. Guy at the counter was nonplussed about the van. "Couple months ago we had a family come in, picked up one of those, it was fine until they hit the mountains. That one blew up, we had to tow it back. The radiator fan had never been plugged in." John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 14:36:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3783740419 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:36:23 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dfn.com (mail.dfn.com [74.116.128.7]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0826A4040D for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:36:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] [199.83.117.102] by dfn.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id b3a6000774a2d609; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:36:12 -0700 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 14:36:14 -0700 From: Michael Porter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Nick Brearley References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/2/2012 7:31 AM, Nick Brearley wrote: > Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one. > > Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental > rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even > after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various > insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about > dealing with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at > consumer websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible. > In addition to all the previous caveats, be aware that many rental companies now have GPS tracking in their cars, and even if you buy daily insurance from them, if they offer unlimited mileage, it's only for their region of operation (usually specified in the small print). So, rent a car in southern California and decide to take a day trip to Vegas, they'll whack you later for additional charges for crossing the border into Nevada. And don't even think about a trip to Tijuana.... Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 14:40:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A774043B for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:40:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vb0-f41.google.com (mail-vb0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E335F4040E for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:39:58 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vb0-f41.google.com with SMTP id l22so1355987vbn.14 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 13:39:56 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=5fGM+sppNJETGpLXPwly0kBNnEjGZkLQNMcFB4Q8rDU=; b=gw+oUYLfq45hT3oBwCnan+ZOq76VxmhvOFw3fTXjt1izWAjNoQU/H5Xao9ngLY8q2g Fuhpfxx5PbQgsZUIDyNVE9XUP/IcICjArDNDrHctMXMa+0HXk4QQnt9ZtXuGvFpyOSpR GnPkCfhW4zuPFT8Uzm8AXMmwQAXcpgcNjxQWPOc43IV7DbfILRYnjAn6c7l0/fGtGM/P mxmDuvVbcTO2ZZoWS9xRox+LXrRvMbnSIlqRvinZd5zzotlcF649PWYW0vOTx7aZrbgG Te575c9K1t2kNSDO8Oqd1n5jSbGGboevIe4mP7E6r6W26uK3sxA56ErXwV4Bhu06jGh5 7rjA== Received: by 10.52.89.132 with SMTP id bo4mr6029947vdb.80.1354484396351; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 13:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 13:39:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:39:56 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net If you are picking up the car at an airport, and you are able to sign up for the company's "elite" membership (for example Avis Preferred or National Emerald Club), definitely do it (I believe it is free). Then you can go directly to your car instead of having to wait in line at a counter to fill out a bunch of paperwork. And these days, a lot the rental companies let their elite customers select any available car in the correct price class: just walk down the line of parked cars, and choose the one that catches your fancy. The major companies tend to be quick and easy, especially at airports. It's the low-budget operations that tend to be a pain, especially about minor damage. I rent 4-5 times a year from Hertz or Avis, and I can't ever remember having a problem with damage, etc. BTW: before starting on a long trip in the car, double check that your contract says you have unlimited mileage. Once I got a car in SF to drive to and return in LA, and the contract said something like 25 cents per mile. I all I had to do was call them and they immediately changed the rate plan. Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 16:46:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CAB240558 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:46:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp004.apm-internet.net (smtp004.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.54]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15A940517 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:38:54 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 1746 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2012 23:38:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.103?) (86.140.231.231) by smtp004.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 2 Dec 2012 23:38:51 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 23:38:50 +0000 From: Nick Brearley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Doug Braun References: Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 02/12/2012 21:39, Doug Braun wrote: > If you are picking up the car at an airport, and you are able to sign > up for the company's "elite" membership (for example Avis Preferred or > National Emerald Club), definitely do it (I believe it is free). Thanks for the Emerald Club pointer Doug. I'll keep an eye open for that. And thanks to all who replied so promptly. If any of you look to make the trip over this side I hope I can be equally helpful. FWIW we'll go with National but make sure the camera is on hand to record anything that could be contentious in the future. Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 2 17:11:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF39F40441 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 17:11:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm13-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm13-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.160]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138A140412 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:57:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.101] by nm13.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2012 23:57:52 -0000 Received: from [67.195.22.118] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2012 23:57:52 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp113.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2012 23:57:52 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354492672; bh=jVM4UJj+mGp/z/BdPtLP60y//TwKO2VQMTx9CH4eaLg=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:X-MimeOLE; b=P68h7Wa3HmmhcwuLjwUfw70Z7vJMhfky7xIOgd/8TukBdE1FV8wLMsD56jA53r6/XVD8LAn8hhUfU69NOJOfSrpJ2gbheJDCi7O+i6+4IZb5BWxDfnLIbSGIH4ulgsu1e0SgfuFuO3kK8ljSs3Oircrx5MO+M9BvTPzBjBaGeIU= yiJYTQyaUi6UB9SQMl8R9jsndCtQbuUr3tbE326iP5xUqSRvZTc8KDTO8I1e ol3OE.9wP9ZOGnHn1s_Fl31ISGtqjMwVJoait7pWQ3lX9z48FNKktDXVss27 J_24xSdfxLv7fTaRSca.9MpHbeGu7iN29UTXmDyFstNJjqD1ztCdossf06WS aU.CyBo8Jd60QqoW71JVNQeqLpc8ihAM4AKAPbWylVyEQ6_VMQqzzPbLF_xD 1UGgEAKwFXV233w.WRUu7SYaNxWEgc3i97CPCX4bGysilzV5PNZyzZP9PjU5 ZPH0wXezLfCAlNdjqpCvi_33Bx0oxjcUPgmYKS1dkfwCcd_fBHxfbjfBr3o3 nWgOgGOzBxx8xbwstN0yRRdLq7er6iWKGQ_fJNFn2oTBdrZlar8.xwVogWW4 Jtz_AsC8f16oOwrKJOqSoRg3MBx6q0_9qsHkeW6LKf9wx_N7ThRPb9filK1_ tvJ5hmqqKJJwECmjgUw-- Received: from EntCentPC (jibjib@71.212.12.109 with login) by smtp113.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 02 Dec 2012 15:57:52 -0800 PST From: "Jack Brooks" To: References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:58:05 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3QnHkrtrKfcLeDR1yxVOT70ShnZQAS1xdA Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Nick, National is my favorite, as once you are a member of their Emerald club you get to walk down their Emerald Isle and pick your own car. I like that, as I have really long legs and don't fit in everything. Also I don't like renting red/black cars; IMHO they are cop magnets. Also, one way rentals are very location sensitive. We did a three week one way trip from FL (Orlando) to NJ(Newark). Returning the car at a little airport (Bradley in CT) and renting it right back for a day to get to Newark cost $800 total. Driving it to Newark directly, without the return and new rental was over $1,400. With regard to charges, some quotes include all taxes, etc., some don't. Be careful that you are comparing apples to apples. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Nick Brearley Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 6:32 AM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one. Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible. Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond. Thanks Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 04:39:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2017440513 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 04:39:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp.mailix.net (smtp.mailix.net [66.11.225.183]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4430C40436 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 04:39:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.23.23.185] (helo=[192.168.254.4]) by smtp.mailix.net with asmtp (Exim 4.24-CA) id 1TfUNM-0003eW-Du for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 03:39:52 -0800 To: Shop Talk From: Matt Trebelhorn Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 06:39:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Holiday decor... diagnose and repair? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Okay, so last year my wife found these lights at the big orange store -- they are about 8" diameter plastic peppermints. (Some of them run alongside the garage/shop, facing the road.) There are 4 in a set, and they have LEDs inside -- they change color, flash, etc. in sync. They are slightly less obnoxious than they sound. So there are something like 6 or 8 wires running in parallel along the set; each unit has 4 wires going into it (actually I think it's 2 going in and 2 going out). Between the wall and light #1 is a box about the size of a pack of cigarettes. So last year lights 3 and 4 on this strand stopped being in sync with the others. They would change, but more slowly. This year, light #3 is now intermittent. When it works, it's in sync. Light #4 is still on a slow semi-sync with the others. It is not affected by whether #3 is on or off. So, I want to try to diagnose and fix light #3, and maybe #4. Mostly just thinking through it at this point. First thought: open light #3 (the housing is held together with screws) and make sure the connections to the strand are good. Make sure nothing looks blown up or otherwise damaged in the circuits inside there. Second: open the cigarette pack and see what is in there. Okay, so it's not much of a plan. Other thoughts: it probably uses the 60hz signal to stay in sync with other strands; you can daisy-chain them or run them off the same switch and they stay synched. I can't tell yet if the box is a controller, or if the individual peppermints have their own controllers/flashers built in. Or both. Any thoughts on how to figure these things out, or experience in dealing with similar little gizmos? Many thanks. Matt _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 13:46:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B6E4043D for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 13:46:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f169.google.com (mail-ye0-f169.google.com [209.85.213.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A17C4042F for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 13:44:51 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f169.google.com with SMTP id l13so521364yen.14 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:44:45 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=te70vkZ5fjSlqfgq/+1QfVd7m6AjAIxCocLrQk/GfJY=; b=GciffBxXDw0EazJne3A4IID/j9owHM/6pG9QU7zVRUaRrEAUOqA5SbdxfeK2aj+tnG yi/JpWhTXU1Vc5P4AIP3o/D52YbZLMX33S2mJY+EV8XOXnFwUA/SxGw0avah7nz7pHWB 46hVMwG+9moqlhBVS7SGIKSoFFqMuERmAQ6/iPonKb1D04p9AHdKTs3qG9FB1UUq1X+m nLYDxu4YeMpOtKjFysO0eY/R3honpPtSZyMf8QWhQ9ZNsW7pUKM7qv9m/d+6q0XOrgOT +QgPcfaFXnJ4gv7U8tK9sKnNtxz9/MmtUcOj2oospsyDZrHcDdo9IeYd+Q0IYU6Kgee2 g0qw== Received: by 10.236.161.233 with SMTP id w69mr12265505yhk.74.1354567485522; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l17sm12579123ank.4.2012.12.03.12.44.44 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:44:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 15:44:41 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com> Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Okay, bought new Win8 discs. Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD. Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works. Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be for an upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when typing in the activation key. I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the discs--can I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this Win8 set? They said yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says 'upgrade'. Not that it matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, so I'm staking out the moral high ground now. I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I have the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and last time I tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any malware going from the old drive to the new one. I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in its unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time or anything else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best Buy and buy the 'right' set. On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for an E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on the old HD, too, but only after I installed Win8. This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to clone the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial written as if for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd need to clone an 80 GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare minimum necessary to be kosher with those Redmond bastages. And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our Lenovo machines. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 14:11:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186ED4043C for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:11:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-la0-f41.google.com (mail-la0-f41.google.com [209.85.215.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933B0403FB for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:11:13 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-la0-f41.google.com with SMTP id m15so3087392lah.14 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:11:07 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=UmgLAGZqKoEtW5F7bwz+lNLKyoMxAN4lyjrj2focSdY=; b=z3dHgtbPxQTKBS2IlW/kWPQTPnYdLO649dBbGhRZqmQTc7ORnrMVifG147POdDoaS2 fdSet825poGhMQjZixvMh1blHvgStUPO2AeF8n4Oqu7IkmUg3mbxfC3j2PUPYpoApiqX rWUtLL6Ioq7NiL1SuwAGNUmM9Du5uXyqsfS78bZEh6Ls30nTjJsb2PD4yUvmp9DxcFAC GNKP4L08Uw72zPigTjvCk7+WaDGOLANWsyxzIOmoMFbSxuBx9ZhozLD8ru4B+GZxXrvQ VdZbMJPGvMhxmok3o6F8vhss5O7xwMXML+YLf3dnzWBLqlt2mM9v9SOiwhATD8mQO2iu OkGQ== Received: by 10.152.105.103 with SMTP id gl7mr10669087lab.10.1354569066983; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:11:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.81.38 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 13:10:46 -0800 (PST) References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com> <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com> From: Peter Murray Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:10:46 -0500 To: Scott Cc: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Scott- Best Buy won't accept returns of opened software, unfortunately. Do you have the original XP (or Vista) discs that came with your Dell? It would likely have been sold with an OEM license for one of those (check under the E6400's battery for the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) and installation key). If you have the COA but no discs, let me know which OS it is, and I can get you an ISO. If no COA, then we venture towards the more grey area, though you already have a legitimate installation of Windows there already, no? You could do an absolutely minimal installation of that and "upgrade" it from there. It appears that XP, Vista and 7 are eligible for the Windows 8 upgrade. Some info here: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57505867-292/upgrading-to-windows-8-what-you-need-to-know-faq/ Cloning from a smaller drive to a larger drive should be pretty trouble free. I do that regularly with Clonezilla and GParted, both of which are free, and you can get both of them on the "Ultimate Boot CD". Search for "UBCD". It will even boot from a USB stick, if you are short on writeable CD media. I can put together some docs for that if you would like. For that system, it should be very easy - I have done it here at my office. It is a multi-step process - install the source drive, clone it, install the new SSD, restore it, then expand the resulting restored partition to the full size of the new drive. I have been happier with the Dell Latitude D- and E-series systems (of which I have purchased over 75 in the past 3.5 years) than the Thinkpad systems I purchased in an earlier life. That said, there are always lemons! -Peter On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Scott wrote: > Okay, bought new Win8 discs. Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD. > > Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works. > > Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be for an > upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when typing in > the activation key. > > I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the discs--can > I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this Win8 set? They > said yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says 'upgrade'. Not that it > matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, so I'm staking out the moral > high ground now. > > I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I have > the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and last time I > tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any malware going > from the old drive to the new one. > > I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in its > unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time or > anything else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best Buy and > buy the 'right' set. > > On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for an > E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on the old > HD, too, but only after I installed Win8. > > This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to clone > the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial written as > if for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd need to clone > an 80 GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare minimum necessary to be > kosher with those Redmond bastages. > > And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our Lenovo > machines. > > Scott > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/** > peterwmurray@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 14:26:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CE44052D for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:26:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-yh0-f50.google.com (mail-yh0-f50.google.com [209.85.213.50]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3615E4043D for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:26:22 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-yh0-f50.google.com with SMTP id k61so374437yhk.23 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:26:15 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kKHbUPJomJcznAycSJB78VroHegEfROy0FqZQHdMDGE=; b=YDnnRPTqTUiLJdICBhZ1DKlw1KC+3VialysRfshpPX/oZJqChS/09jf9DbAedS9jve Yrd7pnKMk1Yt/8TJtZRmiTpEyePEiPWWEI/0lWKU86r7SkKBLO12lfw2/DQBRfozvua7 2FfQOaFEeJVVE/XJt4yGFo3jCgL5V8gU8xFwU1rPZZ6Krgh5Z6NXwgTbfFK4F7rk/lo2 nKsLejatnxmms6oMklk9K/EvVK6gdEMUdWLQOHxLkTHRyF7Vh1WsZ+zIsMGTpqZ50QDb ZDqV59s1HaLXv1eWbFQGEUSZlGBm+floufYVL7SFZhdsp1mGoml2W1d8zP8oAeb97bpV Qj0A== Received: by 10.236.92.6 with SMTP id i6mr12791700yhf.40.1354569975522; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u15sm12664730anq.14.2012.12.03.13.26.13 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:26:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:26:11 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 To: Peter Murray References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com> <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com> Cc: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I do not have the discs that came with the Dell--Dell didn't ship it with discs, and I kept asking Dell for them, they never sent them, and I finally gave up. The Dell does have one of those Windows stickers under the battery with a Windows product key on it for Vista. I say 'those' stickers like it means something--it's the 2-inch-by-1-inch multicolored one that the I.T. guys seem to care about on our work laptops. It does in fact say 'Certificate of Authenticity' on it in tiny print. Clonezilla and GParted are what I screwed up an old HDD with, but I was trying to go from a larger HDD to a smaller SSD, and I think that's where it went south. Everything I Google does seem to indicate going smaller to larger isn't a big deal. Having said that, I would love whatever advice and direction you're willing to impart. I was apprehensive the first time I did it--now that I've successfully screwed one up I find myself thinking I should just check out lenovo.com for a new one. That's quite the phobia I've developed. I agree about the brands--seems like I've just had good luck with the Lenovos, but I know people that swear by Dell, or Apple even. I blame my bias on my old office--we used Dell refurbs exclusively, and they made me hate Dell and anything refurbished. And I used to seek out refurbs before that, and I was pc-brand-agnostic (I mean, they're all the same under the hood, right?). I got this Dell because it was soooo much cheaper than the Lenovo I wanted and it was the only one besides the Lenovo that had the track pad mouse/pointing stick. If I could get it working right I think I could like it. It's very, very light, which I love when traveling, and I even like the keyboard better than the Lenovo's. I'll check out the link, too, Thanks. I'm liking Win8 so far, too. Clearly I'm in the minority. Scott On 12/3/2012 4:10 PM, Peter Murray wrote: > Scott- > > Best Buy won't accept returns of opened software, unfortunately. > > Do you have the original XP (or Vista) discs that came with your Dell? > It would likely have been sold with an OEM license for one of those > (check under the E6400's battery for the Certificate of Authenticity > (COA) and installation key). If you have the COA but no discs, let me > know which OS it is, and I can get you an ISO. If no COA, then we > venture towards the more grey area, though you already have a > legitimate installation of Windows there already, no? You could do an > absolutely minimal installation of that and "upgrade" it from there. > It appears that XP, Vista and 7 are eligible for the Windows 8 upgrade. > > Some info here: > http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57505867-292/upgrading-to-windows-8-what-you-need-to-know-faq/ > > Cloning from a smaller drive to a larger drive should be pretty > trouble free. I do that regularly with Clonezilla and GParted, both of > which are free, and you can get both of them on the "Ultimate Boot > CD". Search for "UBCD". It will even boot from a USB stick, if you are > short on writeable CD media. I can put together some docs for that if > you would like. For that system, it should be very easy - I have done > it here at my office. It is a multi-step process - install the source > drive, clone it, install the new SSD, restore it, then expand the > resulting restored partition to the full size of the new drive. > > I have been happier with the Dell Latitude D- and E-series systems (of > which I have purchased over 75 in the past 3.5 years) than the > Thinkpad systems I purchased in an earlier life. That said, there are > always lemons! > > -Peter _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 15:11:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9032B40527 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 15:11:22 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CF740443 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 15:11:10 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=wlsEiD1AOSkA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=z3x6N4HV8bkA:10 a=bAdj7CcKahbKffWboBMA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55000] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 22/F4-00778-6732DB05; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 22:11:03 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Scott'" , Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:11:10 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3Rlz+L9wUgklsaQ2uoRqSERjcC7gACfKvg Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the > laptop in its unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I > risking jail time or anything else awful? I believe the only likely penalty is an inability to use the Microsoft update service. > I assume I cannot > return the Win8 set to Best Buy and buy the 'right' set. Might be worth a try, on the basis that what they sold you was not suitable for the purpose you told them it was for. As Peter pointed out, they have a strict policy against accepting opened software returns, but your state may have consumer protection laws that trump their return policy. And a lot of times, if you are persistent enough, the store manager will approve returns that don't necessarily meet policy. Expect to spend several hours there though, and decide in advance what that is worth to you. Probably easier to accept Peter's offer of something to upgrade from. FWIW, the UBCD worked well for me, but was incredibly slow. I wanted to shrink a 750 Gb partition to create a new 10 Gb partition, and it took several _days_ to do the shrink. Would have been quicker to just copy the old partition to an external drive, wipe out the internal, and copy the data back (especially since there was only 50 Gb or so on the partition). -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 16:41:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A71340527 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:41:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta11.charter.net (mta11.charter.net [216.33.127.80]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A344740432 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:41:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20121203234108.FVFM6169.mta11.charter.net@imp10> for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 18:41:08 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id XBh71k00Y1Dq0wp05Bh8nV; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:41:08 -0500 cv=set3ANRjRCPXVE/jtaJxOKJrtEYPXxXKq56iIP4dO9Y= c=1 sm=1 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=OuFxs4p0Fj0A:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=RMJmyD8vulSABQYZu0MA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-W1iP1zmaqvOexu9:21 a=QiZIQytqL3BsRif5:21 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 18:41:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 18:41:07 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: shop-talk@autox.team.net User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Since there are others on this list that will be albe to answer the IT part of this better than I can, all I want to talk about right now is the Best Buy part of this problem.... If you bought software from them based on THEIR incorrect information/guidance....then they should make good on THEIR error. If I was you I would make a stink and see to it that they make it right. Did you pay with a credit card? I'd call your credit card company and see if they can help as well. tim --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Scott wrote: > Okay, bought new Win8 discs. Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD. > > Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works. > > Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be > for an upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when > typing in the activation key. > > I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the > discs--can I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this > Win8 set? They said yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says > 'upgrade'. Not that it matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, > so I'm staking out the moral high ground now. > > I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I > have the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and > last time I tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any > malware going from the old drive to the new one. > > I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in > its unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time > or anything else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best > Buy and buy the 'right' set. > > On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for > an E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on > the old HD, too, but only after I installed Win8. > > This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to > clone the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial > written as if for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd > need to clone an 80 GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare > minimum necessary to be kosher with those Redmond bastages. > > And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our > Lenovo machines. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 17:07:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A6140530 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 17:07:57 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746AB40432 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 17:07:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MEH00G3RCCSEBW0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 19:07:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 19:07:15 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: Scott , shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com> <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Scott, I have not done anything with Windows 8, but I believe earlier versions had another way to activate by phone. If that is still possible, and the version you have/had on that machine is a valid candidate for upgrade, then you would just give them the info from the sticker and they would give you a way to activate. I believe the original intent was to provide a way to activate without internet access. Again, this information is old and may or may not apply to Windows 8, but it might be worth checking into. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 03:44 PM 12/3/2012, Scott wrote: >Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be >for an upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup >when typing in the activation key. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 3 20:05:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA4740546 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 20:05:12 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm5.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm5.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.164]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FAD84052E for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 20:04:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.215.140] by nm5.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2012 03:04:49 -0000 Received: from [98.139.215.254] by tm11.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2012 03:04:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1067.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2012 03:04:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 60436 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Dec 2012 03:04:49 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354590289; bh=w4IKjSf9G2ci9zwF3GVp72wFM3K0/jed7/MCwtAqeAs=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=O+TSTTOXC9nWzjMaOPljJbkmw9f+1BR1d0ymwXfBzNcpkQFofCdvmmbV/8R8BjJ4zpjOLn+PLDvinHeoEIeAdx3uyszV2T5bBDJ7ZojbdN4zvW70LmhqIhoiRJIwglVxjHR4IzhnyyJh1Ur3tvdXQz2Kud5yhhICYhLbZdrjiV8= s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vYQv0Jw/BFVwYkBWCCVkFWtc4WPODUPlIJKEP106ncADxoHWdMM0lb0XNBC3TOOusnPjzysobBREfuC9o0u8FN9dqrMRmp2R+8NPfF1i4pY4l7ABbF7O6/fK4qMnocCvxlaYuNTfUECn1FF2eCR0bymt/rrmwQSAqmcTLnpn2BU=; nGtWzT7lKjJOXztRnsVBQYqjbwKs7hYje8OA64hFNfykmMEWceAyIe9g4IYC COBZEssDxAaMbnOyW2y.80UB7pH.mfxN99W5c7nG7_n4_XzXs7ao5S9ea66C FZrknnd5.5zteqWsPA8cwBtZx8a7GQQYSNlnyajUGaVji2Yeu1Cw0zKul4A_ jwGW9WeqKIeg_CBwsoIKT6HjRCG6R8FouEZj941cuadcrtvK6xxLq.dn9ZMB KyBV1QZjELij29Sn4Xn.dd3lRhdUAaYpvfVZaurTGdIbD6CUIMhxUjj7pob7 bDUYx.vlYtFhXxtBQa1yAWn1m4FLnnGwvFz8JY4lKM4n_DrBJc5P7PmeUoMd iTjs0lYXLKwmsISbwi5S.06TFt_By3x06CcABoQX4vuMOhzL9gK.Z5UiDBlf JBCz3LRu0zp9LEMW5R6WoYI.KyZYHakFma6g_K76D5M_z1hjyRiX.Ka8G8ZU KEo8fNWOnIHyqL7Tb6qhq9ut_ZPSmWnmeKoVzsVIcD90V828NoVesTUCYCKQ lSZX6Qg-- Received: from [74.161.2.196] by web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 19:04:49 PST VGhlIHdpbmRvd3MgYWN0aXZhdGlvbiBoYXMgYmVlbiB1cGdyYWRlZCBvdmVyIHRoZSDCoHllYXJzLiBZZXMsIG5vdCBiZWluZyBhYmxlIHRvIGluc3RhbGwgc2VjdXJpdHkgdXBkYXRlcyBpcyBvbmUgcHJvYmxlbS4gTm90IGJlaW5nIGFibGUgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBPUyBpcyBhbm90aGVyLiBJdCB0aW1lcyBvdXQgYWZ0ZXIgYSB3aGlsZSBhbmQgZm9yY2VzIHRoZSBhY3RpdmF0aW9uIHVubGVzcyB0aGVpciBzZWN1cml0eSBzdG9wcyB0aGUgYXV0byBhY3RpdmF0aW9uLiBJIHVzZWQgdG8gcmVmb3JtYXQvcmVpbWEBMAEBAQE- References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com> <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com> <50BD18F3.3010207@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 19:04:49 -0800 (PST) From: Battmain To: shoptalk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The windows activation has been upgraded over the years. Yes, not being able to install security updates is one problem. Not being able to use the OS is another. It times out after a while and forces the activation unless their security stops the auto activation. I used to reformat/reimage lab and company classroom pcs on a daily basis. Norton Ghost was a wonderful tool. Others have since replaced it. I hated activating stuff since the code would be logged, then I wouldn't be able to install again after so many installs/activations. That would be a problem if I couldn't continue the imaging process late at night. Eventually enterprise level licensing came into play. That made my life a little easier, but similar issues there. It is absolutely maddening not being able to complete a process because of the security. It did not help being in the office for many hours, tired, trying to get things done for the next day. The best suggestion is to go back to Best Buy and have the item exchanged for a FULL install version. They will give you grief because the package has been opened, but if you make a big enough stink, you will just have to pay the difference in price. If they still give you grief, that old saying, where there is a will, there is a way. Another alternative is to purchase a previous FULL version of OS and then upgrade that. Either way, it will cost a few more bucks. The eye dee ten tee that sold you the upgrade version should be educated as to the difference between upgrade and full versions of windows. It has been that way for years. Going from a larger to a smaller drive is not a big deal if everything fits on the smaller drive. Disks/CD/DVDs are no longer shipped. Many new PCs come with imaging software and the images on the hard drive preloaded. You provide the blank CD/DVDs with a write enable device and it does the creating of the media for you. Regards, B >________________________________ > From: Scott >To: Peter Murray >Cc: Shop-Talk List >Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 4:26 PM >Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... > >I do not have the discs that came with the Dell--Dell didn't ship it with discs, and I kept asking Dell for them, they never sent them, and I finally gave up. > >The Dell does have one of those Windows stickers under the battery with a Windows product key on it for Vista. I say 'those' stickers like it means something--it's the 2-inch-by-1-inch multicolored one that the I.T. guys seem to care about on our work laptops. It does in fact say 'Certificate of Authenticity' on it in tiny print. > >Clonezilla and GParted are what I screwed up an old HDD with, but I was trying to go from a larger HDD to a smaller SSD, and I think that's where it went south. Everything I Google does seem to indicate going smaller to larger isn't a big deal. > >Having said that, I would love whatever advice and direction you're willing to impart. I was apprehensive the first time I did it--now that I've successfully screwed one up I find myself thinking I should just check out lenovo.com for a new one. That's quite the phobia I've developed. > >I agree about the brands--seems like I've just had good luck with the Lenovos, but I know people that swear by Dell, or Apple even. I blame my bias on my old office--we used Dell refurbs exclusively, and they made me hate Dell and anything refurbished. And I used to seek out refurbs before that, and I was pc-brand-agnostic (I mean, they're all the same under the hood, right?). I got this Dell because it was soooo much cheaper than the Lenovo I wanted and it was the only one besides the Lenovo that had the track pad mouse/pointing stick. > >If I could get it working right I think I could like it. It's very, very light, which I love when traveling, and I even like the keyboard better than the Lenovo's. > >I'll check out the link, too, Thanks. I'm liking Win8 so far, too. Clearly I'm in the minority. > >Scott >(snip) _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 07:31:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DC040546 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:31:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com (mail-wi0-f169.google.com [209.85.212.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C8640512 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:30:47 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wi0-f169.google.com with SMTP id hq12so775994wib.2 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 06:30:37 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=vKq0vpjCZtMT8DCUFIdVO64lWFjhExqHl319XX14Ayc=; b=uaKg17fQoi5AAGWGprHjGe0lNLf72+StE1wBv2ilJxO6pWlHk36a4CDaodeY6k3rQc woztB8Wf2OMHURYa5dSn2chcYTyFwCbHCrgNsunOPj+e/6wb7obTqc4rHeFqbD9rCWlv KP2kx1gNeXb+xZqdegeJl5YAij1BERohe7/5aaN1g+hPHNRCt47ZFhxGVs+zXwZTsy4w dG03GZQ7U1ZTU18addPZtuPV6oU2HMjmejAB6V5B6FDr/O6RzIWUZtpFVz0qqRNYG6xa s5dow53Xs92s3Yg2W1TLs296BgX0JvZqvsm3T1qWogd1Lq9fxu3KSG4y+jUSx0Rn3cl+ Kc6Q== Received: by 10.180.75.135 with SMTP id c7mr4791702wiw.10.1354631437562; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 06:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.80.197 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 06:30:37 -0800 (PST) References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 08:30:37 -0600 From: David Scheidt To: Tim Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Tim wrote: > Since there are others on this list that will be albe to answer the IT part > of this better than I can, all I want to talk about right now is the Best > Buy part of this problem.... > > If you bought software from them based on THEIR incorrect > information/guidance....then they should make good on THEIR error. If I was > you I would make a stink and see to it that they make it right. In most states, there's an 'implied warranty of merchantability', which means if you're sold something as being suitable for a purpose, it needs to be. They've certainly failed at that, and need to make it right, or give you your money back. It's best buy, though, so you're probably stuck bitching at your credit card company. I fail to understand how that place stays in business. > > Did you pay with a credit card? I'd call your credit card company and see if > they can help as well. > > tim > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Scott wrote: > >> Okay, bought new Win8 discs. Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD. >> >> Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works. >> >> Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be for an >> upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when typing in the >> activation key. >> >> I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the discs--can >> I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this Win8 set? They said >> yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says 'upgrade'. Not that it >> matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, so I'm staking out the moral >> high ground now. >> >> I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I have >> the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and last time I >> tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any malware going from >> the old drive to the new one. >> >> I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in its >> unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time or anything >> else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best Buy and buy the >> 'right' set. >> >> >> On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for an >> E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on the old >> HD, too, but only after I installed Win8. >> >> This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to clone >> the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial written as if >> for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd need to clone an 80 >> GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare minimum necessary to be kosher >> with those Redmond bastages. >> >> And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our Lenovo >> machines. >> >> Scott >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt@gmail.com > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 07:53:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3829040541 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:53:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0BE40512 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:52:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qB4EqQLK023906 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 09:52:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 09:52:19 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/4/2012 9:30 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > It's best buy, though, so you're > probably stuck bitching at your credit card company. I fail to > understand how that place stays in business. Competition - or lack thereof. Back during the 1990s, they ran all the other local chain and mom 'n' pop A/V, appliance, computer, and record & CD stores (remember those?) out of business. They came across as a mecca of electronics and good prices, and sold CDs and videos at what may have been loss-leader prices to get people in the store, in hopes they'd impulse purchase a TV or fridge. Now as a near monopoly of brick & mortar stores, they suck and are far from inexpensive. But'ca know what? They make a great showroom to check things out before you buy from Amazon or NewEgg! (take THAT f*****s!) I don't despise them nearly as much as walmart, but they're getting closer. -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 09:52:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB0440551 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 09:52:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E134054D for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 09:52:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:52:13 -0800 id 00000000002800AF.0000000050BE2A3D.00002167 Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:51:43 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Now as a near monopoly of brick & mortar stores, they suck and are far > from inexpensive. But'ca know what? They make a great showroom to check > things out before you buy from Amazon or NewEgg! (take THAT f*****s!) I > don't despise them nearly as much as walmart, but they're getting closer. Part of the problem is, back in the day you had a few product lines, and each line had a few models, and they weren't all that different in their features, and so a mom-and-pop or small local chain could manage to stock enough variety of product to keep everyone happy. Then product lines got too big for a small stocking retailer to keep up with, Joe Blow would come through the door looking for the one with the orange light or the 170-frammis epithelium, and he'd end up down at the big-box store where they had twenty different models from ten different manufacturers on the shelf, and you could pick the one that had the switch here or the switch there (while the helpful sales rep tried to sell you the one with two switches instead of one 'cause it paid him more.) Now of course we have, for whatever reason, vastly too much product out there for even the big-boxes. And the narrow (in the case of the small shops) or dubious (in the case of the big-boxes) expertise has been replaced by the Internet hive-mind. It's really down to (a) products you have to touch before buying (b) stuff you have to have NOW (c) stuff too bulky, heavy, dangerous, or spoilable to ship and (d) retailers who can maintain or develop a specific product niche. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 09:58:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25B94056A for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 09:58:09 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252ED40407 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 09:58:04 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id hm9so699534wib.2 for ; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:57:53 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=4+5AmjOScfMsz6NXMhFPNqwQ8dQmiKxnQ386VGkEBVU=; b=ySnG++8/quMwzGcH6+91axq0aVR8RCOOfo3i/JRlKUkEJnq4XsG6WO+38MyBvcW5of 3jExt/LbORH/XQrf0MLma5DF8TLLKkX37ywZmn2uWgJZIK4fCr7i2O5WPQ4qo/335bFf 7gxKefrb5z6a2nP4BWknvWOVBfOVA2chKjq+xc5Gz+gzSBEi4ViEDSiitrO966zYuov5 XvYKfiitO042tTVGusZz/k8liPe8bhId4b9+NPfAK+FV+fjG+9CIOTb4PAPhhEdzgiNB QKS26vQmOQ3Te8fHihWlTEclI4lS3qyJwgU0svPcJMoNGrzQrsFAbjzWP5ycIH7HAmg6 +Reg== Received: by 10.216.208.100 with SMTP id p78mr5285099weo.92.1354640273779; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.80.197 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 08:57:53 -0800 (PST) References: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:57:53 -0600 From: David Scheidt To: Dave C Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Dave C wrote: > I must not get out enough. I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper. I > never knew they existed. I understand how they work, and I guess if natural > gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they > might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution > looking for a problem. Not exactly related, but GE recently moved the production of their version of this water heater from China to Kentucky. The American made version is 25% cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient. That will reduce the payback time quite a bit. > > When my (12 year old) propane heater craps out we'll be getting another > propane heater... > > Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt@gmail.com > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 12:48:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5261840562 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 12:48:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.204]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE52340554 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 12:48:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2012 19:48:08 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.107] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2012 19:48:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp112.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2012 19:48:08 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354650488; bh=RzkHJdFkLSLTgjNXzSMBBMDhdwlDFLLT2S+IatGs0RE=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=HBaKfzvfhKHIzKFw36lhg6UzOwpE30UCP3zUqZyQG/zeelAq4rJmb/nRE+x4w1G3DCr1B+VBjx/hmxBbSw8p7n1VQX521MNTQ2b+ZL4ffUsPyZ8t8M5vHqYRddPSDxps/xmE3GHyO4gXnK8od9ymD71CkKgaAZHTBlBnRYN+2JA= jkLpr5.NKPecr6O5i74U4crj3zCxhdj7B4ytBTnglT1qaO47HInUnZx.HhLu A4lVnjIx3xOVH154BdVDM4cpZZEcRZclbwMhDj5Ei6OzTMDWITcoCfNyMsGn dvUO1kAwoP4iSQEVm55_i1lqFbv46d.bndthkr3XKfZ2mddj0gHctywGSjrw L4Z8hZY_kfekafV138S33Uyh_8ycKIr0GEtEs47rwVRq42viZ6oKVIB_XINQ 6JmZisD5ObVglOhHVanmENKkQMABP2HBsJpRiQpoV6FYFRLchZjGRZ_bHwBR hyVCj3zYFgSiFgc7crdkMLe.XzK6kQ5ew.DYC9GVY.szkjjmwt9y0_EL5hx1 IrK3cmqLg5WsMIqu_kh4YiH0koIFwEZUY.v8f9pFQ5vrX.sdAN6r06NRvyfC lRFLDgr2fG4vaEMQuwltKSHvZjlwQhaFUockVvS__7yflgO_Y3uotHP7bcIW LEVKW2kPJAcRDmrQ1tVo- Received: from [192.168.1.67] (shochschild@108.95.144.138 with plain) by smtp112.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 04 Dec 2012 11:48:07 -0800 PST Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 13:48:04 -0600 From: steve hochschild User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net As a former tech support/ retail sales guy, I probably would have answered the question the same way the Best Buy person did, if I had been that clerk. I am standing up for the sales people who generally do know far more than is being assumed here. Do you have any idea how much Microsoft Windows 8 training Best Buy employees have had in the last few weeks? Many, many, many hours. Getting and keeping a job at Best Buy is not easy; I do not agree that they hire idiots, which someone said. Forgive me if I misread it, but I understood your question to be whether or not you could do a clean Windows install on a brand new hard drive with an upgrade copy of Windows, and the answer to that is yes, you can. I would have assumed that you actually had the license cd. No sales guy is going to suggest that you are running Windows without a license cd, that would not be good sales technique. Did you specifically ask if you could do a clean install on a new drive with an upgrade copy without the original Windows CD? I believe the answer to that question is no, as you have discovered. Again, I don't know what you asked, but that is the way I would have heard and answered it. Anyway, I will go out on a limb and predict that BestBuy will exchange the opened upgrade copy you purchased for a full license copy, and charge you the difference, if you politely explain that you purchased an upgrade product that you can't use. They might be even more likely to agree to this if you take your machine in to them and ask them how much the Geek Squad would charge to do this new install for you, which will get you what you want, done right, very quickly, and allow them to provide the service that makes them useful in this new retail world, where places with employees compete with places without employees. Look at the Amazon page, does it answer the question you asked? How could it, there is no one to ask!... Please let us know what happens... On 12/4/2012 10:51 AM, John Miller wrote: >> Now as a near monopoly of brick & mortar stores, they suck and are far >> from inexpensive. But'ca know what? They make a great showroom to check >> things out before you buy from Amazon or NewEgg! (take THAT f*****s!) I >> don't despise them nearly as much as walmart, but they're getting >> closer. > > Part of the problem is, back in the day you had a few product lines, > and each line had a few models, and they weren't all that different in > their features, and so a mom-and-pop or small local chain could manage > to stock enough variety of product to keep everyone happy. > > Then product lines got too big for a small stocking retailer to keep > up with, Joe Blow would come through the door looking for the one with > the orange light or the 170-frammis epithelium, and he'd end up down > at the big-box store where they had twenty different models from ten > different manufacturers on the shelf, and you could pick the one that > had the switch here or the switch there (while the helpful sales rep > tried to sell you the one with two switches instead of one 'cause it > paid him more.) > > Now of course we have, for whatever reason, vastly too much product > out there for even the big-boxes. And the narrow (in the case of the > small shops) or dubious (in the case of the big-boxes) expertise has > been replaced by the Internet hive-mind. > > It's really down to (a) products you have to touch before buying (b) > stuff you have to have NOW (c) stuff too bulky, heavy, dangerous, or > spoilable to ship and (d) retailers who can maintain or develop a > specific product niche. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 13:47:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D04440E96 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 13:47:12 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s11.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s11.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.85]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B6940E1D for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 13:45:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from COL115-W32 ([65.55.34.73]) by col0-omc2-s11.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 4 Dec 2012 12:45:00 -0800 From: Jim Stone To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:45:00 -0600 FILETIME=[3AAFDE30:01CDD260] Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net After 25 years of good service, my handy old Dremel is finally giving up the ghost and needs to be replaced. Before I ask Santa to bring me one, I thought Id poll the group for thoughts. My current one has a flexible shaft attached to it and hangs by the workbench in my garage. While I do use it occasionally for light polishing, grinding and shaping, by far the most use it sees is as a cutoff tool. I almost always have a cutting wheel on it and find it much easier for light duty work than a full size air tool. Given how I use it, it is tempting to get a flexible shaft tool, and could be persuaded by others experiences, but do like the versatility of the Dremel with the flexible attachment. And, I am certainly not wedded to the Dremel brand, if someone else makes a better one. As always, thanks. Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 13:56:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489DD40570 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 13:56:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com (outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com [64.136.55.36]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 55DB240557 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 13:56:25 -0700 (MST) s=alpha; t=1354654573; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=From:Date:To:Cc:Subject:Message-Id:Content-Type; b=KZwoMQ/LWv5+chjW2d0BLx5t9UPioEK1PDKRMaXKixqyD2gV3c1O6vkoETdG2LEwg f+cWzvfxmURwkEnboT1D9CexzVtV6UAmX3lXBUUxJM+1DVPwR4ZLPx6TH5rZ6M+ffL vwTdY+OWxzCiaKyBM/JH47VprTgoFR6v5uw+RDnw= Received: from outbound-bu1.vgs.untd.com (webmail01.vgs.untd.com [10.181.12.141]) by smtpout02.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJM623XAQ2Z8ZJ for (sender ); Tue, 4 Dec 2012 12:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [12.133.26.2] by webmail01.vgs.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 20:54:57 GMT From: "Matt" Full-Name: "Matt" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 20:54:57 GMT To: jandkstone99@msn.com Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim Stone wrote: While I do use it occasionally for light polishing, grinding and shaping, by far the most use it sees is as a cutoff tool. I almost always have a cutting wheel on it ... --Mine is still going strong, but I have to agree, I only seem to use it for small cut off or intricate grinding so it keeps a cut wheel on it.I found an old B&D flex tool at a garage sale for a buck recenlty, brought it home, cleaned it up, blew it out, plugged it in and it runs well. So when the dremel dies, it's replacement is already onboard! MB _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 14:49:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC56F40693 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:49:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2654F4055C for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:49:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([24.246.168.46]) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qB4LnNoP025866; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 16:49:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:49:16 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Jim Stone , Shop Talk List References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/4/2012 3:45 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > After 25 years of good service, my handy old Dremel is finally giving up the > ghost and needs to be replaced. Before I ask Santa to bring me one, I thought I was at the local Northern Tool last weekend, and they had something that looked like an inexpensive Dremel knock-off. Didn't pay much attention, since I wasn't in the market but might be worth checking. -w _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 4 14:58:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D01840645 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:58:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D0F403FB for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:58:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E05A138B for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:59:45 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:59:44 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120315 Firefox/11.0 SeaMonkey/2.8 To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The last Dremel I bought was a rechargeable cordless one. It is nice, but the corded ones have more power, though a bit clunkier. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 5 15:14:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC3E40E47 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 15:14:40 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gg0-f169.google.com (mail-gg0-f169.google.com [209.85.161.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F2740E48 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 15:13:52 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gg0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u4so991419ggl.14 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:13:36 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5yIwmgc4rkA/cM/B6LvU/zWCK+0nG4Zj+20QvXPYpOo=; b=oxtuNI+5pCiL2NdwsHerwLrJOfBHMikjslpVI1scOMdtvYPg01LMaazZoaDZtUF/MW UmnZZa2VV+5AafeIeSbqJGSbL6iPgwSNq/VHD3anqa/7Azi6rhNZPO8ZJzj2yBGZE8mt SBdbUO+LqHpw8i+EEfcTxeFnCHW4kTSBDhvWvJ75jVGMB1Nu++PjCI7qbGo56O36yGKB 2EsFGFxcohNSyxiuLFekut0zlq8eGSNs15myvuzYJcTeufW5aiwO/pkSRJ7h2DHMTvFy OsfpTaJsuihxizFAjZgcrqO5s7d2599ph6wF+RYqyE0Oias4yDjBjvYiJwgcI/4FORf0 j9Nw== Received: by 10.236.151.13 with SMTP id a13mr23273262yhk.53.1354745615888; Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z11sm6019323anj.13.2012.12.05.14.13.34 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:13:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:13:31 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com> <50BE5374.3060602@att.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net To tell the truth, I'm more perturbed at Microsoft than I am at the Best Buy guy. A lot of that is because I share the same opinion of Best Buy employees that most people do--I fully expect if I held up a CD of Ke$ha's greatest hits and asked the drone if that would install an OS on my laptop that he'd have said yes to that, too. So that he got that wrong is expected. I'd have been more surprised had he actually known the right answer and cared to give it. But I've looked over the box my Win8 copy came in, and nowhere does it say 'upgrade'. And there wasn't anything on the display, either. There were other displays that mentioned 'upgrade', but this one did not. I remember that because I wanted to avoid just this exact situation (and I knew I didn't have the Vista discs), and I wasn't fully sure that Vista qualified for the cheap upgrade, so I just wanted the plain, full, stick-it-on-the-hard-drive OS. I got Win8 Pro, and this was the most expensive Win8 at the Best Buy I could find, my 'logic' further being that I expected the upgrade versions were cheaper, therefore the non-upgrade version must be more expensive. For what it's worth, though, I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, "can I install this on a new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or copying anything from the old drive?" I dunno, maybe you got the good Best Buy--I think you can correctly assess my (novice) level of computer knowledge based on my questions here, and just based on that I'm reasonably certain I qualify to manage the Geek Squad operation in that particular store. My plan is let Peter get me an ISO, which I assume will allow me to use the discs I have to authenticate the copy of Win8 I have. If that doesn't work, I'll assess how determined I am to deal with the Best Buy retards to get a 'full' copy or a refund, and if that doesn't work, I'll dispute the charge on my credit card and buy a full copy, or else worst case suck it up and clone my old drive to the new one. I'm sure the process isn't that bad, but I really don't want any of the malware on that drive to get on the new drive, hence the purchase of the new drive and the new OS and it's proved very difficult to eradicate. There's no kill like overkill. I'll have to do something, though, because the SSD is taking several minutes to boot, whereas the old HDD was talking about fifteen seconds (both on Win8). I'd expect an SSD to do at least as well, so I'm hoping that's an OS issue that will go away when the problems with it are corrected. Scott On 12/4/2012 2:48 PM, steve hochschild wrote: > As a former tech support/ retail sales guy, I probably would have > answered the question the same way the Best Buy person did, if I had > been that clerk. I am standing up for the sales people who generally > do know far more than is being assumed here. Do you have any idea how > much Microsoft Windows 8 training Best Buy employees have had in the > last few weeks? Many, many, many hours. Getting and keeping a job at > Best Buy is not easy; I do not agree that they hire idiots, which > someone said. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 5 16:14:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1127840E40 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:14:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm12-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm12-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.11]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192AF40E24 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:13:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2012 23:13:26 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.52] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2012 23:13:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp105.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2012 23:13:26 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354749206; bh=XA3TxGYjCCWsArJuOtpwICR4Sdz2AZDaomzOHiscb24=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PnczTJ3Igpp9Bnu/3Inpf/6uv4rbIHUqSF8U9bu2Wflj2fua37SybpZiOXmx5ZCBO6ZH/S/WndFH0kAa4CZ/RQSZv1IivEs7og5gfdGGAGViegMu/5ZgZQ3z9vW4gbfllx7FrF/pPLg3zymex0glJaGOpgok8XtPqXCCR3g/uos= uA.VuE4G2FVSoBB6syF_r1dM4Lj8VytZ8zJ5JicH3.gOez67HgFi7HG01HBn e1.WH8XsoAduoBa69l.nX6hf.SR5FXI.bHXIj7hOCEm_DdVkfyELhUOnxSgv AREe_BVaaupriEjsJPGlAzXhcR1blxAhPtrdnR0ABqW9Mufg6BKxdCT.jyx4 rZzxuKyXn3luV11FWeueUNa0gXD7s6JY0NxtXuekVTV1R6cNr5rIL4jITXBr U9I6qrggIQIAIBHyFGq2HeihspqYe.LhEhw4w54sxWsPmFyxyDd3eyfaHsVl R.leoY3JXC39EYrAlKFKTO8zYw0tyBMD9s_sTlxOzz2GLPuEC31XctIMgvFe _85I6YP5247xyPCno9q4auMJSMLeeX10K2IgLt.FI_.TgCRjMuISShjwLYDy NW7bG8KU.QUDdx.xSrw-- Received: from [192.168.1.67] (shochschild@108.95.144.138 with plain) by smtp105.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Dec 2012 15:13:26 -0800 PST Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:13:24 -0600 From: steve hochschild User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com> <50BE5374.3060602@att.net> <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/5/2012 4:13 PM, Scott wrote: > I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, "can I install this on a > new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or copying anything from > the old drive?" And again, the answer to that question is yes, you can. You have no complaint, and no reason to insult the salespeople who helped you. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 5 16:26:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA0640E4A for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:26:42 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-yh0-f54.google.com (mail-yh0-f54.google.com [209.85.213.54]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980E840E24 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:26:35 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-yh0-f54.google.com with SMTP id s35so914281yhf.41 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:26:18 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4NQJJ5vanHEyNY8b1VC7cuSU46jPSrey+3FrSvI/Rt8=; b=Hezv7Xyt4y3ZQoRBzRCXWk4yRC3JF3GFdiVhGdIQ9rHsQZkjJa7cF5nFTOhEAGy6na FO2sWcsYVAOUd5ww4AfpOEdeBPU6CGq99XUuSxiaUqPKR+QRxfToHRNrQrCXquXrznSf NnBE/aNaGK5TsmBqz6pC9yzT2+c6mvHvvunheITxCCDlI15Xz4WwA+4eT0KHtjcCNWqu BuuFMw40Jr0bFziMrOFqNbe8+a95qBc2YV5eD979msRNQDV1u6TeDb+dRdXG+7q7ogW5 kL9yBpeQDn0tXfRbZg2b2qTkNGkLXGUcRxNYj44N4MBM62T/NGAZufL9YapAF+Qy6VLr ut8w== Received: by 10.236.131.138 with SMTP id m10mr23608849yhi.101.1354749978371; Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s21sm6794863yhb.5.2012.12.05.15.26.16 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:26:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:26:13 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com> <50BE5374.3060602@att.net> <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com> <50BFD514.7020605@att.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You should tell that to my laptop--it's disagreeing with you. On 12/5/2012 6:13 PM, steve hochschild wrote: > On 12/5/2012 4:13 PM, Scott wrote: >> I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, "can I install this on a >> new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or copying anything from >> the old drive?" > > And again, the answer to that question is yes, you can. You have no > complaint, and no reason to insult the salespeople who helped you. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 5 16:58:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041B340E4F for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:58:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm12-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm12-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.11]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BBF40E20 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:57:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.127] by nm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2012 23:57:01 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.241] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2012 23:57:01 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2012 23:57:01 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354751821; bh=cRkde6IjrMtuZ0vvGG8PGxbZOBVApAYFwiXdCWikDMg=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=rUfgsAxTqX6tbWwLiwMASWKnOMU4rcMlj4+vX+zbxMOEOk3ybSeqteRqY70KOJw7Id5kRWksVWrHOFLrTyrLuH9Mp7fdpOX8UzDaZ+We6VQCbmORfBKNGCFfetij/0RdpeW0MRhwOeyqdAb10UUGtNffwR/6618WKYNhPWt1ITg= 5IIsa6O5DNvSfPfIA3T0EzpxfIKLdGELDba7OXirJl75sbNeHLnTifntMeot J5GPeM2VsMk.NEzjs7TP02OIN3fbVBtMvk1bjHy3DS_pPjEsA0LWQk7QBxvI OPBgo7JqvFqQdAONHEd.jDy0oqoDbFgTTb0MzFHjtGFfVJHRldkz2R6XjOeW KTFyk7Bd5QvmzZCZKy2NcNPwpXvX1DfX93aQK13NWV8nXQdvIxxzrdULrQkU yHEOVcyDq.WtG5L.rGiU91SRpuNsNh6ulkwPjJoVKkF0Slsfa9CMoO762oGQ uZ0ns5s30CikF7bG7x_zT75ENSPeFmS4U0U1AbQ_JIAc2dNdWTNfyNlIBA_H iOuCZMgLCpx1sbMC8_fLvPWaLX0FoWG3W0nIHkAKY8DKwZMPWmiqDFN_yoru ypZRmgzxy0iglSJnB1N8gSAFkos6_LsiTuJO3hvr.l590qHtLXZgOtHVkY7w QbtH4JlGRWGbIUYdtt50- Received: from [192.168.1.67] (shochschild@108.95.144.138 with plain) by smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Dec 2012 15:57:01 -0800 PST Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:57:04 -0600 From: steve hochschild User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net> <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com> <50BE5374.3060602@att.net> <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com> <50BFD514.7020605@att.net> <50BFD815.8000400@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: This is why I don't work in IT, was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I believe that you have a full copy, that the cds that are being sent to you will not help, and that all of your problems are due to operator error. Good luck with all of that... On 12/5/2012 5:26 PM, Scott wrote: > You should tell that to my laptop--it's disagreeing with you. > > On 12/5/2012 6:13 PM, steve hochschild wrote: >> On 12/5/2012 4:13 PM, Scott wrote: >>> I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, "can I install this on a >>> new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or copying anything from >>> the old drive?" >> >> And again, the answer to that question is yes, you can. You have no >> complaint, and no reason to insult the salespeople who helped you. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 5 19:57:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EDD40E48 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 19:57:03 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm20-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm20-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.174]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA5040E2B for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 19:56:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.98] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2012 02:56:36 -0000 Received: from [67.195.15.61] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2012 02:56:36 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp102.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2012 02:56:36 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354762596; bh=Xz0vGjhQ6Cmqx/sbbyeGrP0BLYiilwpg7XB3SOZNeJo=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=zp5oeuFmoxjeMCqJsn4atBqErhkM1KB/5nbuKLD+itJCC2oX3GG2RrY+3c8UHvCQwxKv/X8ETy6+MdeRLoq/O9rS3gVwQ+2EXmVez42vEulzmKAsHq3zU928ULT4NVFu9VQ1qYaBQf+6Pj9wQHRIdFJD+IjsKzztSEe2tqcUACE= oy2of8_NXsmWh5aHN62T2H8sZj_QcDQW.ndfJUO32oby7uOqa1SFD.tFHsr. K_Og6QBmju0pqyGL72uLWrm3w7hszUqTgxpCtKYp9KPLewKQbLNXTd1BcO2g 36SZ9ZtFHOmRPfp0lXOx0cSlA0yc_Y61.8T7DhwQajO4CYgOKlf0ZSK_mtYr FWBA.XzTnMIGnB9VpeNTSdHIK_gSbtQ9UE9Ys_JcgaN4Y5YKhJ71fnjGOUWV YvQxT8lR9.lvll9aHXNxUXBdMc9VXswqR.YhbGDvir6exxypMPr6IDbaAI2U q42Pqx2EXJ6C9U9cIeEnF14kVg8syMfOKpuEPh0Hf63suSmIKpQCZGHSJu.f ocGn8vpdeml5tNui2iY2Rs6RFv6UeMgLUofWomX6hW4k- Received: from john5043a2d406 (jniolon@108.227.226.77 with login) by smtp102.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Dec 2012 18:56:36 -0800 PST From: "John Niolon" To: "shop-talk" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 20:57:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net the shop content is that I'll be out of the shop for several weeks... after struggling with a bad shoulder for 9 months, feeding it Tylenol and muscle relaxers that did no good, loosing sleep and being hindered in pretty much everything I do I broke down , had an MRI and xrays and the diagnosis is torn rotator cuff on my dominant arm. Solution is arthroscopic surgery to repair... 6 weeks in a sling with no use of that arm then rehab and another 3-4 months of limited to finally good use of it... I've been paying attention to what I do with my left arm (which is pretty much everything I attempt) and I'm seriously concerned about 6 weeks without that arm... besides writing and typing and anything mechanical down to brushing my teeth. I don't see how I can manage without a manservant ! (wife says womanservant is out of the question ;-) I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy and accident prone as I am. I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few) and what exactly were your limitations and your ways of overcoming. I know about the sling and the foam couch cushion under it... and all I read is that that arm doesn't get raised up AT ALL for a while... do you have use of your arm from elbow to fingers IF you keep that shoulder/upper arm stationary ??? even if I had to strap it to my chest I could possibly manage with the forearm and hand free... How do you button blue jeans ? or wash the side of your body that has the good arm ??? anyway... I'd love to have some conversation by email or phone with survivors...the forum certainly isn't the place for it... anyone want to answer about 600 questions and give me the 411 ?? thanks John What every man worth his salt should know how to do..... Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer Make a wish come true - for someone else, keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear make a child giggle...tell a ghost story write a love letter, ask for directions _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 5 20:48:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B8240E36 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 20:48:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0911B40E30 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 20:47:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id s9so9600034iec.41 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:46:54 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=08qNmCckN6yLrqnsmSUdm3hWAQlorGk83X4KRVOM71I=; b=QGpbUz7MFSM9LT+3fyBYq27VtTu0W+MZqloqtzFgTs5jMggYIC7IjT1BjqiBY8DY4I nPcd45zDTtnifhQHveDtj308LKDGUlrjFCnPuvmrchJ+AJUAQ2k9w5yXgNg7s7f3qzvS HDAfW3DKw1j4pCWyvISdvfaJa6bTl6b08AiOekXR8nG9cGqOT9yvHjJYZ50BOp72+oS2 xcmE2KhJyXviAhjQc+AYiL7d3x9WFHHZ21CHCt7kOEbrS6rnH2Erk/8M5iN+DbgJ0Mal BGOpqAlXJJ7rvNDZAAr2+SSRsxzXRBcwmx+STEVthnY5xOMzz0UzxaEaZrfQpWcRgLVd TM0g== Received: by 10.50.53.230 with SMTP id e6mr138963igp.46.1354765614043; Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.69.198 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 19:46:53 -0800 (PST) References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 22:46:53 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon wrote: > I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy and > accident prone as I am. I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this > surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few) and what exactly were > your limitations and your ways of overcoming. I once laid the back of my right hand in the table saw blade. I had plenty of time to learn to be ambidextrous. All the things you normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your other hand. If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet. Two things made life easy...first, you can tell Windows to swap your mouse form right-hand to left-hand, so the index finger still does the main clicking. And second, keep Post-It Notes or tape handy - you can stick the paper down while you laboriously try to scrawl a note to yourself, since you can't hold the paper. My problem was not as acute as yours, though, I think - I didn't have the limited range of motion that you will, but there wasn't much point in moving my arm anyway. You'll struggle for a few days, and feel a bit sticky, but you'll adapt. I'm not sure what I can add to that which will be relevant to your particular surgery, but I'd be happy to chat if you like - PM me and I'll send my number. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. P.S. The two facts I always mention after I've described my "accident": The first thing you say is not "Ouch!", but "Man, that was stupid!"; and when the surgeon rebuilt my fingers, he put a curve in them such that I can both type and hold a pint glass, so life pretty much goes on as before... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 5 21:39:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771C240E53 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:39:23 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604A340E30 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:39:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.164]) by out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2012 04:38:54 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-149-114.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.149.114]) by relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A7E045F96; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 04:38:54 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 20:39:05 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Jeff Scarbrough References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406> Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/5/2012 7:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this > >surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few) and what exactly were > >your limitations and your ways of overcoming. I didn't have the same surgery, but mine was somewhat similar. I had to have some bone planned off the socket part of the shoulder joint where it was "impinging" on something else. I had a sling for a week or so and then little to no mobility for a couple of weeks, then rehab after about three or four weeks. It was 3 to 4 months before I was doing ANYTHING with it at the gym and about a year to 18 months until I was back to pre-surgery strength and range of motion. What I can tell you is that shoulder surgery takes a long time to recover from, and you need to do EXACTLY what your doc and P.T. tell you to do. If they say not to use it, DON'T USE IT. DAMHIKT. Also, well before surgery ask your doc if he is planning to use a pain pump, and if he says yes, then do some research on the web and discuss it with him. I had one and used it a couple of times and then took it out the 3rd or 4th day. There can be some serious long term complications with their use, however, which, fortunately, I haven't seen yet. I already mouse with my left hand due to tendonitis years ago, so that's not a problem. Good luck. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Dec 6 16:29:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8274340E62 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 16:29:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E6A403FE for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 16:29:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA808564061 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 15:29:21 -0800 (PST) content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= groupwbench.org; bh=/ip8uU0anHPIjk3Fc0fh7qckzdk=; b=as6HUuIhjmTz 9lWjh1w/enppIl3gbagc74YmYZpVDqXPKthUL/tTzU/8evc7ELzofgX3fRJrMp0F guINWGE7GmmtTRem9ypBdhNc2CBp7wHfUkixsFaSMAknhmKWzuHmLjqqwn67TDis zG7pnMit0y2ulf8ASDP2gV2ljM9/Twk= Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-98-118-112-94.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.112.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ABE5956405C for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 15:29:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 18:29:11 -0500 References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406> To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Dec 5, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon wrote: >> I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy and >> accident prone as I am. I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this >> surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few) and what exactly were >> your limitations and your ways of overcoming. > > All the things you > normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your > other hand. If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet. And to that and other bathroom activities, start NOW using your non-dominant hand, not the first day post-op. You will be spastic at first but you'll learn. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Dec 6 20:53:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71C640E65 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 20:53:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.221]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1658A403FB for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 20:53:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2012 03:53:07 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.54] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2012 03:53:07 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2012 03:53:07 -0000 s=s1024; t=1354852387; bh=6HYz6TPz8mahiJyS9urkslwGWAbPVcbTBQyCf+iMCts=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:X-MimeOLE; b=vULm5VBEh/VCOzXHh9oFOCPXVbCii3UOlPKww4xckeDIRzGxu53RzoluHdKNVU06aoWDaW2OUN0fDTS+Ydw9YRU9SP6aQcrYNpyTNDFGnz08+7kPZa/b1AOtZ434bKq0n1KiVCqNW4JzD55SRbJWh7LkhlDxjcYBbUvTyKkE6ks= huNwrg8uijyKv6uWm2KDLexkv9rE8oOLu62aGlOeLdU5x6UAOJPw2s.K8xBk kBKxnJbI6pm414QZo4FHyKQFQmQp5hbc9f86Do81sGr4csG8EMJ6VPCxYTis h0KzyOSflKM9ItVuGao1By8Y8hapcebBHwBrqy_.gs46_It50oTPdmCjPFqc zsFwA282FoGjxHvGhGh0Y8Vy7I1Q4razPUz.dBs1yzkXYVwq5b1MRgYC2.Iu WXyuO25vBTGbRL4l65Xi4sMD.sTMzThBo7k4SMfD3RMS97tDHs6RKPCQ4qFg fgBr_tuWTM6S52s5N6G2fTY.cyhqv4ipYCDaHDjrbnJDlIdOoiPfUs.ZytRM 4eGOh55qMTcnn6HI7N.jD7O4fKUd_UsUZsk8rVgkdF7UgCb7zZ9eKxk5yHTm fHwAWT2yqmr5FrXBExSOY8DxLL4aom01dm3DwtZQB8g-- Received: from EntCentPC (jibjib@71.212.12.109 with login) by smtp107.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Dec 2012 19:53:07 -0800 PST From: "Jack Brooks" To: "'shop-talk'" References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 19:53:29 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3TXVl2IQMNaDxlRu+boUTmPH4oywAzrazA Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net John, I had my dominant arm useless and in a sling for about 8 weeks. You will become a wizard with your off hand side. The sling came off in the spring and while I was not allowed to do much with that arm for many months. I did manage to play a respectable game of tennis with my weak side arm; although there was no real serve. I did manage to change the generator on my 1960 Triumph TR3 with my strong arm in the sling and it's heavy SOB. It took a few hours, but it got done, Pants - If you can't button them, zip them up and pull that belt firmly. Watch your wife wiggle into a tight pair of pants and you'll figure out that laying down on the bed may allow you to button them with one hand. Shopping - I bought cases of water and while I could get them into the cart, I couldn't get them back out and into the trunk, but I always had someone stop to help get them in the car. Don't worry about it. You will be amazed at how quickly you adapt. Keep some wipes handy in the bathroom for the first week. You may need them. If you want to talk, pop me an email, but I'm sure you'll figure it out fast and be surprised with the progress you make and the capabilities you have. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Niolon Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 6:57 PM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop the shop content is that I'll be out of the shop for several weeks... after struggling with a bad shoulder for 9 months, feeding it Tylenol and muscle relaxers that did no good, loosing sleep and being hindered in pretty much everything I do I broke down , had an MRI and xrays and the diagnosis is torn rotator cuff on my dominant arm. Solution is arthroscopic surgery to repair... 6 weeks in a sling with no use of that arm then rehab and another 3-4 months of limited to finally good use of it... I've been paying attention to what I do with my left arm (which is pretty much everything I attempt) and I'm seriously concerned about 6 weeks without that arm... besides writing and typing and anything mechanical down to brushing my teeth. I don't see how I can manage without a manservant ! (wife says womanservant is out of the question ;-) I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy and accident prone as I am. I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few) and what exactly were your limitations and your ways of overcoming. I know about the sling and the foam couch cushion under it... and all I read is that that arm doesn't get raised up AT ALL for a while... do you have use of your arm from elbow to fingers IF you keep that shoulder/upper arm stationary ??? even if I had to strap it to my chest I could possibly manage with the forearm and hand free... How do you button blue jeans ? or wash the side of your body that has the good arm ??? anyway... I'd love to have some conversation by email or phone with survivors...the forum certainly isn't the place for it... anyone want to answer about 600 questions and give me the 411 ?? thanks John What every man worth his salt should know how to do..... Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer Make a wish come true - for someone else, keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear make a child giggle...tell a ghost story write a love letter, ask for directions _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 7 00:50:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59EF40E80 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 00:50:53 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out1.ip04ir2.opaltelecom.net (out1.ip04ir2.opaltelecom.net [62.24.128.240]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CB8403F4 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 00:50:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from host-89-241-176-107.as13285.net (HELO [192.168.1.68]) ([89.241.176.107]) by out1.ip04ir2.opaltelecom.net with ESMTP; 07 Dec 2012 07:50:17 +0000 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 07:49:24 +0000 From: Neil Sherry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121005 Thunderbird/16.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406> <8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The dominant hand thing is just what you get used to. In the old days, left-handedness was not allowed - my left handed grandfather had to learn to write with his right hand. Also, although I am right handed, I always brush my teeth with my left hand - this is because the cold tap in my parents house is (as is the standard) on the right side of the basin. So I grew up driving the tap with my right hand and brushing with my left - I find it really awkward to swap. Neil On 06/12/2012 23:29, Jim Franklin wrote: > On Dec 5, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon wrote: >>> I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy > and >>> accident prone as I am. I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this >>> surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few) and what exactly > were >>> your limitations and your ways of overcoming. >> All the things you >> normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your >> other hand. If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet. > And to that and other bathroom activities, start NOW using your non-dominant > hand, not the first day post-op. You will be spastic at first but you'll > learn. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry@talktalk.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 7 11:12:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7626440EA6 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:12:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ee0-f41.google.com (mail-ee0-f41.google.com [74.125.83.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7276C40E6A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:10:52 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ee0-f41.google.com with SMTP id d41so545366eek.14 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 10:10:27 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=M5i/620qwVSf2rPGhWzM5LP8trKiPiAVQNQnNkxomEk=; b=frmTpNs3b2HmodRPT2gvtMoi/Ml2jSbp6N5Dc2sx9mSIHFYbbQwOwqMXnHDobAVPSO LZ9g60cq0/DHTZPCLZHob0HO0xO1u8zM7v4dX2ojEWPFzhiOe7EFO/I9/OW+WRC+vH3a XV856EUlnVl/HufrH88B40YKBB5ohi/MBHw1v2zwVYkr9fU2pwmc+eRlTA6FAerBgBha YHuBooMbOt80wkUp11+AcqanAVQmahrYRuGPwqYn/FOqnvTXFsNwVIL7L5XxBiWHQFNI KdzbvgMK3NAkK8QdLKmB35H1gveXZzqDRon6UcLXyqEFuKCdzU90MQz5oRoD4K171EAz a4ww== Received: by 10.14.175.133 with SMTP id z5mr19346216eel.15.1354903827066; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 10:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.94.76 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 10:10:26 -0800 (PST) References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406> <8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org> <50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 12:10:26 -0600 From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" To: Neil Sherry Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest I've seen to being ambidextrious; he'd write with which ever hand was closest to the ticket and I've seen him with a pen in each hand checking invoices. I confirmed my idea later when I heard he was not only a switch hitter but a *switch pitcher *on his softball team . . that's scary! On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Neil Sherry wrote: > The dominant hand thing is just what you get used to. In the old days, > left-handedness was not allowed - my left handed grandfather had to learn > to write with his right hand. Also, although I am right handed, I always > brush my teeth with my left hand - this is because the cold tap in my > parents house is (as is the standard) on the right side of the basin. So I > grew up driving the tap with my right hand and brushing with my left - I > find it really awkward to swap. > Neil > > > On 06/12/2012 23:29, Jim Franklin wrote: > >> On Dec 5, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon wrote: >>> >>>> I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a >>>> clumsy >>>> >>> and >> >>> accident prone as I am. I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this >>>> surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few) and what >>>> exactly >>>> >>> were >> >>> your limitations and your ways of overcoming. >>>> >>> All the things you >>> normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your >>> other hand. If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet. >>> >> And to that and other bathroom activities, start NOW using your >> non-dominant >> hand, not the first day post-op. You will be spastic at first but you'll >> learn. >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** >> options/shop-talk/neiljsherry@**talktalk.net >> > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 7 11:23:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E08640411 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:23:05 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F380B40405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:22:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.43]) by qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Yghz1k0040vp7WLA2iNYMa; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:22:32 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id YiNY1k00T2yr1eL8RiNYUN; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:22:32 +0000 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 18:22:32 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" s=q20121106; t=1354904552; bh=XgiPHFLyRuC9931OWkrbIHtXeaWTA8hK7zZixqKOSvM=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=cEAs2mJm1MaUIakNGqgFOetMKLj+9ip2JjgUGYRI9SFlulMQvOPUGJ7JOCyRiH4Co dEckEFxWaU682Cpzcbf6gfmT/FTaFfT73omwHMnUcuRDULvtZeAqNE/Eej6Q6JXlH8 /hlegs4mB4Dvaap7TqLp0qgLQJxJhvD0DIC801rrbfvmBrEP986ka9dHpDiNivruM2 Ftnj0cYArwszrIHS8vW9shRyrON3q/bqWlKbtCwZJdSWbsEZNvYxcxGEe6bX7pxL9J 0ieVhkOJQaC1i3L76qWbGxJnbGp7GXEBsFFgoXCsuFBwbyMv0PIk/V1I0jEGBuWaxS JeJLog9jF377A== Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" > To: "Neil Sherry" > Cc: "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 12:10:26 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop > I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest I've seen > to > being ambidextrious; he'd write with which ever hand was closest to > the > ticket and I've seen him with a pen in each hand checking invoices. > I confirmed my idea later when I heard he was not only a switch hitter > but > a *switch pitcher *on his softball team . . that's scary! "I just hired a new switch-hitter. He's completely amphibious." - Casey Stengel Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 7 11:31:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C128B40E95 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:31:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 018BF40402 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:31:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta23.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.90]) by qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Yddy1k0061wfjNsACiXGNb; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:31:16 +0000 Received: from BigBlack ([24.22.207.129]) by omta23.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id YiXF1k00A2o2ZTs8jiXGjK; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:31:16 +0000 From: "Bob Kegel" To: References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406><8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org> <50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 10:31:10 -0800 s=q20121106; t=1354905076; bh=DLEhhtxVKmedl84Tvdors2+D0n+dD7zjpPb71DXQuY4=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=E2EbCMm2KtBW1iRUMK7HIlHky4Mw74UP/xFjHHBqu6w74nfdS6T3HtYROK+OiIKYP H7yaI7x4OiUlR0VOcOlgVaaOAmSaJbHpJXRdrsyYvKvUr/NYMWG3RNG0d3Zu9SMjRj wiOkxXPfN3XUzpEVfte0dZkDK9pauOj49GG+9DPsMW8tiE7KqWH1w6N9PS4CPRaEP9 QLG3PV08PTi4fnoeKwJzwcCnlGWts0yYDj2Ol/UkD3esGb8rZ0BC/10WB+4JeblxT1 yWhzgBfjzk0GXvipIWd8P0YJ4DHPOkY5THGeK8mlehkKfKbfuxfYxj2Wt7/uxeCf2+ RUM09zyeQTXEg== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Thursday, December 06, 2012 23:49, Neil Sherry wrote > my left handed grandfather had to learn to write with his right hand. As did mine. Family lore says he would irritate his teachers, when writing on the blackboard, by starting with his left hand and switching to his right in mid sentence. Bob Kegel _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 7 12:55:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDA840E66 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 12:55:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3BED40408 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 12:55:35 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=sgx-4N8KUBoA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=cvzNXYyqcmAA:10 a=UDGCune3Oh3plXpUXIAA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55000] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id FA/73-00778-C9942C05; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 19:55:09 +0000 From: "Randall" Cc: "'Shop Talk List'" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:55:08 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3Upm4S0QBYAC2eQmuGnjVVgYwxhwADck7g Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest > I've seen to being ambidextrious; he'd write with which ever > hand was closest to the ticket My late wife was the same way. Not surprisingly, her handwriting was different with each hand, which got us in trouble with the bank more than once. Finally had to fill out two signature cards, one lefty and one righty. On buttoning pants, my suggestion is to pick up some that don't need to be buttoned. Stretch sweat pants are perfectly in fashion when worn with an arm sling. And I can't button mine even with just my dominant hand! -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 7 19:55:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765CC4041F for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 19:55:36 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8752F403EC for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 19:55:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Ycd11k0060b6N64A1quyHK; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 02:54:58 +0000 Received: from Mike ([71.231.223.23]) by omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Yquq1k00E0WuPoP8Pquyfo; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 02:54:58 +0000 From: "Mike" To: "Shop Talk" References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406><8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org> <50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 18:38:41 -0800 s=q20121106; t=1354935298; bh=h28lrdBiTojevFL0r6Fzy8mVFJFDU5V5GU3EO48rYzw=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=BH9bF8gDyJhxR2FAvwCeiPEYwAZewiZAbgdUlnWA/+vTJlT1YMajbKu6VI0KuZjkN 0e5s8oXb0tmy+NdE5r1JKsCmRVNb3w82D4XtcJs0TLlVLJVI8wN6/YTXaW2OAwjzGQ YmeDZ1RMt6RE7NDINoh7IvRuCXrdZVvekb+Bzx2kjuHDTJQ7HnUQr5kVTaM/JdrroT 74VDnI8rcLqKXyJ7oKA1zstJ1w+dTeuS77mGG+ysvtFoC/NPXwDQjxNe93xPC3SWyf 78IBivtHbBwWcXT0qNcAXTY8zo2/oqfu2tE6mcTJklAEYhcvKoQ4vhP3nh4lE7uHMB Tux1ok6GUrmPg== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm right-handed, but I feel more comfortable dealing cards with my left hand, and I use my left hand for the computer mouse. But the latter is because this leaves my right hand free to work the 10-key pad and the Enter keys, which all are on the right side of the keyboard. I've done it so long I have trouble using the mouse with my right hand. You can train yourself to do anything. I remember reading about a grad student who made special eyeglasses that used a prism to invert the view. He wore these all the time for six months, and found that he could get along in the world without any problems, as his brain had adjusted. Then he quit wearing them, and it took another three months to get back to normal. Mike ================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Sherry" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 11:49 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop > The dominant hand thing is just what you get used to. In the old days, > left-handedness was not allowed - my left handed grandfather had to learn > to write with his right hand. Also, although I am right handed, I always > brush my teeth with my left hand - this is because the cold tap in my > parents house is (as is the standard) on the right side of the basin. So I > grew up driving the tap with my right hand and brushing with my left - I > find it really awkward to swap. > Neil _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 7 20:00:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B2340422 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 20:00:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09CA340409 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 20:00:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.167]) by out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2012 03:00:05 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-149-114.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.149.114]) by relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 228E017C9A; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 03:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 19:00:18 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Randall References: Cc: 'Shop Talk List' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I had an instructor in the Navy who could write on a blackboard (remember them?) with either hand, but when he used his left hand everything was backwards/mirror image. He did it mostly to annoy us. Since I started teaching wood shop I have learned to do most manual tasks (sawing, chiseling, operating a lathe, etc) with either hand so I can demonstrate with what ever hand is most convenient with respect to where the student is standing. On 12/7/2012 11:55 AM, Randall wrote: > I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest > >I've seen to being ambidextrious; he'd write with which ever > >hand was closest to the ticket _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Dec 8 10:53:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15604043B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 10:53:19 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE8B403DE for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 10:52:54 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id gb23so1623085vcb.14 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:52:24 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=jlxsntiniwrFeyhMrwRgTiXl6qpbqt7Cpamgy6Y5kQM=; b=nyTt9icuSfxyHkrAvZyQ4/g5uPDef6CbOpR02JU2rEENfKkIRf7Cueezx/YmO+ZSGs pe7QlzElTCO376TD8+CWduXHB6tWkpdXv4piLQQIqryf/6Fo+ySRlLxuQVT0uMsgmZb7 F80R9xzW3ZYNElFVF1r6y7Z5kxwJdvUMADMh/ca6+gAppkxeJDTXgkk/N0H9L4EHGDaW kwhzTGWtsrcep8IxNIPph07pUHXsmfKr6m4ACwyEAVD4PkmFJca9WeVuBiu6QWQoj8ss XNqgmfbdK2lB4WyyJQJgez8dl0mm362yxEGXOP4rbMUqjyO7zVhqekv6XmB5HTjcKN/8 f6lA== Received: by 10.58.145.161 with SMTP id sv1mr6115177veb.52.1354989143786; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 09:52:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 12:52:23 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Very handy (car-parts-related) websites I found Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I had o idea these existed: www.findpart.org : look up any OEM part number www.opposedforces.com : very detailed illustrated Subaru parts catalogs. Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 11:04:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD1540414 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:04:12 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B59403FF for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:03:18 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id gb23so1155668vcb.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:02:26 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-mailer :thread-index:content-language:x-gm-message-state; bh=MLxABaiq2lq3fwi7YFsZ8xTG1QEqEs6tChwGOM6rqYA=; b=ErT/s75MmcLgyuFBnt89tvZgzjlW0J1SoJzhSZpcwP0z3OI8aov97mb0bgDAe9wcaR 3fuM18Yj6GNscviwErG1xjSz+Fpx2tQy6bBcgLLm/j0wwShDlaX5yizqObAsD1tImN7V oIUAvafe7vlIRvA/ZbybNQVGyH/fihRfosj0CKU4tESlXkZ9qNMePmrj965is3gJX8ZY zye4AVAtx/VhCGuR1HNyr2pYyTT9lm3Gce2/seK1fv7kTD+XZxbBE+rQXORvPL52Mvg6 h2g1Q7KqsNVjLDPPbwB9lXorkjUvlayxU4JFzoxzPxH2Zqxscs9+64ksgcPRK2B3d088 kFkg== Received: by 10.220.241.141 with SMTP id le13mr984611vcb.26.1355335346157; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from GeraldPC (d28-23-189-29.dim.wideopenwest.com. [23.28.29.189]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gl6sm8093620vec.4.2012.12.12.10.02.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:02:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "shop-talk" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:02:32 -0500 thread-index: Ac3Yktmpr6DbTkwEQmeLt7ovQWvdpQ== Content-Language: en-us Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have a Garmin Nuvi 255w and it does one annoying thing that I haven't figured out how to beat. I hope the crowd intelligence of this group can help. Let me give you a recent example... We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near Nashville toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on "shortest distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is there any other way to avoid downtown congestion? Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?" _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 11:21:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4B140E3F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:21:57 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D4B403FB for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:21:50 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:10:05 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 12/12/2012 13:10:08, Serialize complete at 12/12/2012 13:10:08 Subject: [Shop-talk] Diverter valves Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Can someone please tell me why diverter valves are built to leak? I mean, why don't they have a ball valve on them so all the water / pressure goes to the shower? Is there a reason I can't add the ball valve myself? TIA. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 11:38:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC0B40E65 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:38:22 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qc0-f169.google.com (mail-qc0-f169.google.com [209.85.216.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C8E40404 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:38:15 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-qc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t2so830711qcq.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:37:25 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=nvDYq1FKeMRZ5dvs/eBVqH1lTUK9kuWaV2DpaeYWGYo=; b=GxLqmWo38ILxaF5wisBIavcwseyxUQErBlAgUaCJdECoXnDE3fF9poRl9hzJqCGpG8 HqLk/zNKMq9PiLM2wItYxLjsdfG19uzxltzsEi9EXY5+VH41UXRs3tQJmfMonvWOroXJ Knk2gy5lHmlWeyuvJQCHjbnZl7Fo/0jkh9uKmfdNp9dHMpPzK2zwuEvmV6QajI+rxfak 5HVH50fWOMm4g/68T/iU3WIuF5Kdp8l+QqPP86P6ISqRAx/yUZ+TOHC8Y2AvAlOzFBsx DWnujJKFrVMOZeF5j3TA2fzGy1/yQRKloELV7ZFWj8sEP5NOyFhZYPNgTbzstfNeHrNX epcA== Received: by 10.224.185.212 with SMTP id cp20mr3774376qab.2.1355337445464; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.131.136 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:37:25 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:37:25 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: eric@megageek.com, Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Diverter valves Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net In the past, when I had a leaky one, I replaced the entire spout/diverter assembly, and the leak went away. Unless you have a high-end matched set of fixtures, the spouts are cheap and easy to replace. Doug On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 1:10 PM, wrote: > Can someone please tell me why diverter valves are built to leak? I mean, > why don't they have a ball valve on them so all the water / pressure goes > to the shower? > > Is there a reason I can't add the ball valve myself? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 12:03:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A28B40E57 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:03:01 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.17]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDFD240FDC for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:01:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id aiwy1k0010QkzPwAAj0YDo; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:00:32 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id aj0X1k00b2xZMJ48Nj0XEX; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:00:32 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:00:31 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: Gerald Brazil s=q20121106; t=1355338832; bh=0KxmP+TJUqRSb4ua4vW7kqDWW/hOnal7wsAEQGTkKQs=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=Gbl3KI96SJoFBzQKKTtRq/tCD3Ft6md8+Z5WGZn6Q4SHZ2yHnQx2tMTXYh140zXI5 XkXf3h8SxyTRq9faWtTNicNt1/TboKtPuvXAkhZ6ceDCLZAIeMiE0tZ6d1J2/d9whl wsJjoiDZxA4Cjy4pTUSbGhADEHZRjuO3iUC5iHSHaWm8kI4pwfzkIv2/klB6vfCNBS P/Jd9dARGHs515tlGe0CCmVO7EYxhzT02Ya+AsTtTK8lq1x9ROUk+VOJPuXpNcF5/I 7LPQJkvE6CZ/G1R6IrAmRvnHyQPLeS0wTDzvhywgIWqHkVPJiX+aaQ9fjcwlKxLXzQ 1l1Sv89H25U5Q== Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Is > there any other way to avoid downtown congestion? > > Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?" You could also look at a map. If not a paper map, I look at the map in my iPhone. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 12:07:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37BAF40E3F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:07:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FBA403EF for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:07:02 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:55:18 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 12/12/2012 13:55:20, Serialize complete at 12/12/2012 13:55:20 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I was thinking about getting one of these... http://tinyurl.com/bdyteqv Does anyone have any experaince with these Electric Infrared Quartz Fireplace Heater Media Entertainment TV Stands? I would love feedback. Mostly, how much heat do you really feel? TIA. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 12:11:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4D642267 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:11:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ia0-f171.google.com (mail-ia0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84250403FB for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:11:14 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ia0-f171.google.com with SMTP id k27so1214665iad.2 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:10:24 -0800 (PST) s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to; bh=JU42165CsYojw7g0iXub/IAno1WoJdgbwoIr5LXs5FA=; b=H5pBel1h8YNc1QL7Cxb1SliasLVY7XHtNo0jCvxEDHhNoIoGHyPIL13E2hOAiTiERU qyFHk4PTx3sXQZCwW3NNtYvcr5crE8D07/03tt5AdWo9musrOT+Sm2rXUvCtlKVPemNQ cLqRu319wqVC7D0/qwx5EpHxoCHNjr5vPht/V8YZgsQrLrJ8XXE0gPBvKb0fBrb7k07a mpkJvQKw42mOPyjKUYAO7kqufOaj4DVGJPb5ZbLlCy3MxYH9SJy+ejib32L4TkLzzvIX K9HbSc+9kig3vLuUdmFYdRr0FdIb49fPjn8LJ9kwscIq7d5r9ZPTtYaeXCnW6MxbNvx2 BtOQ== Received: by 10.50.42.232 with SMTP id r8mr14542475igl.18.1355339418150; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.55.162.173] ([167.23.240.75]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gs6sm12779812igc.11.2012.12.12.11.10.17 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:10:17 -0800 (PST) References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> From: Paul Parkanzky Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:10:13 -0500 To: Gerald Brazil Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Our Nuvi (I'm not sure which model) has a traffic receiver and can be set to avoid traffic. Invaluable if you travel in places plagued by gridlock. -Paul On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:02 PM, "Gerald Brazil" wrote: > I have a Garmin Nuvi 255w and it does one annoying thing that I haven't > figured out how to beat. I hope the crowd intelligence of this group can > help. Let me give you a recent example... > > > We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our > destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of > Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near Nashville > toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a > very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have > been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around > Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on "shortest > distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is > there any other way to avoid downtown congestion? > > Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?" _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 12:16:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325F840E9E for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:16:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0087F40404 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:16:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:15:32 -0800 id 000000000028001C.0000000050C8D7D4.00006037 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:15:02 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> <0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/12/2012 11:10 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > Our Nuvi (I'm not sure which model) has a traffic receiver and can be set to > avoid traffic. Invaluable if you travel in places plagued by gridlock. GPS signals alone will not help you with traffic congestion. Google Maps on my HTC (Android) has 'layers' that will permit you to add traffic color-coding, gas-station locations, etc. to the map display. It's proven fairly accurate in my experience. This of course relies on a data connection, not just GPS satellites. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 12:45:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A8140E4D for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:45:56 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.66]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C20F4053F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:45:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 19:44:39 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.200] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 19:44:39 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 19:44:39 -0000 s=s1024; t=1355341479; bh=iRtY4jI2oO4yE50gajXf6V9RLSdWiQcdzeddzXjRTgQ=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=goGmF56HAfb+LmyKgwjfbLAOvqRqWUvXuuCb4FLJm8pgLloVn2hUeFZVrt0thKgIWQpEkvnwwxIjqJ32dmvzCK/q5Jtbgn4/cSYimlIfWzsVPPSJLJ97iGqasaw57kfHD5GlVlZuGeUeio9xSFES0ZfcLCx+YCKkWyFoog6YeTM= SzWN6Z1nRYcouycA_MKVzuIcDgBEW9RmLdcFRMxvDVL1._5HlQP5fOvxNsDa 19n8rJ4qXcpjgSHBTjzijiiZSnv.uOX_yxrgt41uaZ9egIMEbKYhwD4F4oUL mLexgnNf1RskhXu9KxPF.KALvlf7_bmcZEfRrp24i6m7Uco1m0ZoJFj3gpbx FBKOLavCqBc1MLDlB7GrzE0DEJ_Ce25toyLpcwehR7gF1uraW2BVkrttrW75 pIzW4GphlaOtIYG2VQkHRrMHB6F5d8NSQjkr6_FCXuu6AX92Gtu5jBqh7_aL ArfAjr5jeLTBsQdU9OtLT71agJBDOcG1kmbOSPWPY3jdAl2L6PfbB2vgPiVw BTard1Ae4pIg89abTFtfI8OJGHRD7XRuMXLR9vIzGKD6VWRSNvMF_tK95ZgJ sPzN2StWrNxhOcRxEPFvEcz_wBI4YggU- Received: from Karl (kvacek@75.21.94.211 with login) by smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2012 11:44:39 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> <0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com> <50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:44:08 -0600 Thread-Index: AQCquFRDDZtpdymmUDqUPCgMkoS6QAIV62+RAe4v9ZuaO6uucA== Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Google traffic is vastly more useful than the alleged traffic that I get in my Garmin Nuvi 3590. The traffic reports in the Nuvi are (in my observation, in Chicago) at most 25% accurate when they warn of traffic. Accuracy is far less than that when considering actual traffic jams that it does not report. Google traffic, OTOH, seems to be at least 75% accurate both ways - there is usually traffic when it reports it, and it usually reports actual traffic I find. Speed of reporting seems good too - I've found new traffic jams on roads previously clear, and watched to see when the jam appears on the traffic map. Maybe 5-10 minutes the couple of times I've seen that happen. Also - with lots of touchscreen pushing you can view the traffic along your route on the Garmin, but then you need to return to your map to use it. Google traffic on my Android phone is there all the time if I want it - just turn the traffic layer on. Can't do that on the Garmin. I wish Garmin would just buy Google's traffic. I really wonder how Garmin got to be the "standard" for GPS units. Based on my use of my new 3590 LMT (their top automotive unit) and an older C60 hiking unit I received as a gift and used in the car occasionally for a few years, Garmin is a disappointment. Clumsy to use, poor manuals, and just not reliable. If I ever decide to buy a dedicated aircraft GPS, I'll buy any other brand than a Garmin. Karl _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 12:57:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F2D403E4 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:57:53 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from seamless.hostnac.com (seamless.hostnac.com [199.189.253.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A8740E36 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:57:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from [24.212.159.45] (port=56657 helo=johnpc.localnet) by seamless.hostnac.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1TisQJ-0005xK-9a for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:56:55 -0500 From: "John P. New" To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:56:56 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/4.9.4 (Linux/3.4.11-2.16-desktop; KDE/4.9.4; x86_64; ; ) References: with any abuse report jnew@hazelden.ca Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Eric, I bought one similar to this for my mother a couple of years ago. It's functional (her TV sits on top of it) and, depending on what you enjoy, the flame effect can add a bit of "emotional warmth" to a room (I prefer wood fireplaces, so it doesn't do much for me, but my mother seems to enjoy it). My mother's has a built-in fan and it does put out a lot of heat, but of course this varies by model/manufacturer and the room in which the unit sits is fairly small. Hers is 110V. The only thing I can say is that the controls are less than desirable: the remote control is annoying because it only turns the heating and light elements on or off; the fan speed and heat intensity controls are on the unit itself behind a front panel next to the floor, which is very inconvenient for anyone except children. It's like having a TV remote that changes channels but not volume. Like any heating appliance, it can be dangerous for small children to be too close, but since mine are older, I can't recall if my mother's unit is particularly hazardous or not. John New On December 12, 2012 01:55:18 PM eric@megageek.com wrote: > I was thinking about getting one of these... > > http://tinyurl.com/bdyteqv > > Does anyone have any experaince with these Electric Infrared Quartz > Fireplace Heater Media Entertainment TV Stands? > > I would love feedback. Mostly, how much heat do you really feel? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 13:50:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366A340E47 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:50:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D40840511 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:50:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id afbH1k0050FhH24A1kpVQ2; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:49:29 +0000 Received: from Mike ([71.231.223.23]) by omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id akpU1k00C0WuPoP8UkpUJ2; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:49:29 +0000 From: "Mike" To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:49:44 -0800 s=q20121106; t=1355345369; bh=qaHMwDuL0qp5OEGXZUUAlIJ+serk1c/I7qEV9rJMjGE=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=IOP+Oykukworl4tgyevIjqHNWAG/dhFizsMqLeTGBs/HZCQK9ZpTO4moR0uocmd+W fjM9RcNQRaEJG95AZ2Fo/nMzP1y5y2/V5e3aMaG52uwcxXakttNDn3cj7iUJm2XmhM qDvezyEn7ruMK8hd0ZnxxGVQ2zbZCPmf6MiwHfsUtm2Kk5o2CT9B5Yymsur/jNyRBi W/RI/Rb76o0sw0W6Wli08MCZBjEDwbuBDbI13+y3S1jeunuqv9RNwR0xOnUxYtZbMZ cfF86cYYFl1xIL7yifgBkzHxpcmE4C7lg2kSuBAeEiFXkfsThzb86t1QdWCGQcPeC6 8gfdEKiFAVS1Q== Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My experience is that they semi-pretty to look at, but do not come close to looking like a real fire. A fan is necessary for giving you any heat. Mike ================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:55 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand >I was thinking about getting one of these... > > http://tinyurl.com/bdyteqv > > Does anyone have any experaince with these Electric Infrared Quartz > Fireplace Heater Media Entertainment TV Stands? > > I would love feedback. Mostly, how much heat do you really feel? > > TIA. > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/phoenix722@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 14:35:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6661740E41 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:35:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f169.google.com (mail-gh0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6374040B for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:35:38 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f169.google.com with SMTP id r11so325166ghr.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:34:48 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RyixuiguL8C+wXDNYaHw1MBTHtSwgtFvLj72w4tqDSE=; b=DssQxUeAytjW81+F5j0Tfj9StdHxuOR7yY1QntAXhu2u5KmelwBKm7EIh6hCxbJepN +g3oDEexbkv015SE+KbMA/NSvK6ISCdjsBE4ngGw0NqGW5qE3RuoWSJPe/VLP/USsMGv TYaTz2T77IhGk+lfO6zKOR7ZM2M7m83sysiPpRi9WDztkOBGNrRx6c8mXroaWziAITVp UNW1KM4vND/E9uis78hnE6WeiJ7H4PM+4tPVTcG9hQ5fev7FUH5itQIi6Cd4B9Qisvp7 M/TEBxd7WwzeWUoH24SHLfMz4Rf0S1pApsvg5xUPXJecUNeyCwyKq6zq+ftmhdc6IZ7x b9AA== Received: by 10.236.144.137 with SMTP id n9mr4022343yhj.107.1355348088381; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j8sm33960107ank.21.2012.12.12.13.34.47 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:34:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:34:43 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> <0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com> <50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I can't help with the Nuvi--I have one, but I used it for a few days before I decided Google Maps on my phone was infinitely better. Like John says, there's a 'traffic' layer. I resolutely ignored it for at least a year, not trusting it, until it tried to route me off an interstate once and I ignored it (stupid computer). I spent four hours at a dead stop on the interstate while a co-worker who followed its instructions (he didn't know there was an interstate there...really) had almost no delay. I follow its advice on routing now, or at least check the traffic 'layer'. Other than that, I do like Phil said and just use it as a map. I do that for the very same reason mentioned in the original post--I was trying to go through Nashville once and it took me through the city on the interstate when I wanted to go around. I couldn't ever figure out how to make it do that, and I didn't see an 'avoid cities' option, so I just use Google Maps on my phone like I'd have used a paper map years ago. Except with traffic congestion noted. Nashville and...I'm trying to remember the other city--Richmond, maybe?--are particularly awful for that. I want to just go around them, Google wants me to drive through them. On 12/12/2012 2:15 PM, John Miller wrote: > GPS signals alone will not help you with traffic congestion. > > Google Maps on my HTC (Android) has 'layers' that will permit you to > add traffic color-coding, gas-station locations, etc. to the map > display. It's proven fairly accurate in my experience. > > This of course relies on a data connection, not just GPS satellites. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 15:00:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8B640E3F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:00:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF33403EE for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:00:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MEX007X4UERBKQ0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:59:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:56:49 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: eric@megageek.com, shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net As for your actual question, the website says 1500 watts. The efficiency of electric heating elements doesn't really vary. It's physics, actually. So I would expect that it would put out pretty much the same amount of heat as the other 1500 watt heaters on the shelf at Home Depot. I don't know how to better quantify what you really feel. Maybe try to borrow some other 1500 watt heater and see if it works for you. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 01:55 PM 12/12/2012, eric@megageek.com wrote: >I would love feedback. Mostly, how much heat do you really feel? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 15:29:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E8940E5C for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:29:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta31.charter.net (mta31.charter.net [216.33.127.82]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60FC340511 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:29:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta31.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20121212222901.VUAG24708.mta31.charter.net@imp10> for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:29:01 -0500 Received: from wt09 ([209.225.8.59]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id amV11k0081GRMdM05mV1l4; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:29:01 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=XAUNNXzA7wwA:10 a=UmdoBHi8HHOKY8I2XxsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=nOLpHGzrPa01JxuON1wA:9 a=zdRuEmwNkDemIoCQL0WYIA==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:29:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:29:01 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones? thanks tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 15:42:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5B640FDC for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:42:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm17.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm17.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.144]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9ADC40511 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:42:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.99] by nm17.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 22:38:01 -0000 Received: from [67.195.14.39] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 22:38:01 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp109.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 22:38:01 -0000 s=s1024; t=1355351881; bh=ZXT3jFg45+LACI/VWZ8YLGfMWb5utbmffCf/G769pfo=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=S0ZuZLFcSBeHMwUs9ZMI9fs12PAvBEmZ1+/u7ZSvwEnzqUXhi6Z/+069sW0R4gu/wqqur9ChXqweMJN9exarePkXwKdI4G1lhmRt06/CGYnVNHoqzk5vB5xVMzhS6PMOltUpOXtk51AvVNZrBNdrBdo1DLB0JbkPqA2zD9nbWjc= 1JehS3AM6arz6T3PJe.XWZkzJdEGfplNJ_JdJYjw8M0peu3SJ3B7hQhk71HC wYEpGfexkwH3f21bLZv9tTO71rdSyyCv_x63TUpljO_LG3V4WP06nmGXDcLr _rrwrtbNzC.8yTv3rhOzvy4RjP5hj62Z8e.LjMG7r21i6tic7JokIsCE7eEr 6oVfdLASKN3JQnyWKgmO1.hIici0WyZ.yPbbAcim3Oto9J8.Orp6_x79bObO MvgXXjRJYapmx1alNCv25NXPwg.bgVuSqqp8R0FBeAmvd8Ivf3KviZCRewA_ 6c4J_NuQ_7rbZPp_KMCR6Zl6ZaKs6oXT9hvoIqOSYkV2ne7Vz2ukDViZYvfe mz0fxEPJCxJ0_ddaBn3W7uQxgAs4bprNBKq0waSzs_g0IYQHGR6irQ48gPeX P0tYa_Qz4jxL1V3G5s4tHxynibBFXjrBr2W_pD08uHbPK0R1fxBm1rVtw9t3 WUzkDhadULxW8pDeOC2XNfzAM1wS.1oIY9Z2yIFMKsSCfVScchj1CMswHM3E sABkSe1ExUrHOGkQIVoH_XO6Wvon3gngy6A-- Received: from [192.168.1.67] (shochschild@108.95.144.138 with plain) by smtp109.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2012 14:38:01 -0800 PST Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:38:03 -0600 From: steve hochschild User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have been a loyal and very satisfied Virgin Mobile customer for nearly 10 years. Phones start at $10, uses Sprint's network. They have no contracts, and two plans. Check them out at http://virginmobile.com/ On 12/12/2012 4:29 PM, Tim wrote: > Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones? > thanks > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 15:46:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5526740E4E for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:46:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qc0-f169.google.com (mail-qc0-f169.google.com [209.85.216.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E3640511 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:46:44 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-qc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t2so1120776qcq.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:45:53 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=8s2wqWQUgNPBQX3xdOJGEUj8PEu3qZv9NKIjValhrRA=; b=b0+lBm4WnmhkScgN0A986PZ3DMOeF/Gj6+AXF6R16gGFVRoscnITEShJwhpN7YVYnK WQoWeEQv6hDUXAZ36cS0YgE7YyUJm9QBISZPB+mu9LI6UfREu06BoWNB5W9NQjPe4bzK cylqPezT2t97V7pwZl11h/zXRjjXo9pSjXMZENeMuyE9mI/5rupltxf9hgBRCzzz5HtC dgzb+hI3CrQK80S/i1Gc3iTeqeoWVEUrWgS/Z+/r2AXC5pX9D+OWKMxtTHsFQFpV7C+E +9FbH8Ku4VuXNDSGs7yanc6e91xiO8N0nB+/edM1Vagy/Aet4DXZKK6efjhgkpUOgkcE 9eog== Received: by 10.224.173.76 with SMTP id o12mr75652qaz.46.1355352353570; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.131.136 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.131.136 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:45:53 -0800 (PST) References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:45:53 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Tim Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I got a couple of Tracfone burners for my mother in law and a friend of hers when they visited from overseas. They cost only seven dollars each! They worked fine, and the minutes were not expensive. If I was traveling and I lost my "real" phone, I would pop into the nearest CVS, Walgreens, etc., plop down $7.99 for one, and be back in communication in a few minutes. Doug On Dec 12, 2012 5:29 PM, "Tim" wrote: > Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones? > thanks > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug@dougbraun.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 15:52:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24FF40E9E for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:52:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qa0-f48.google.com (mail-qa0-f48.google.com [209.85.216.48]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914FE40511 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:52:02 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-qa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id l8so2018938qaq.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:51:11 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=EIiWl3jY3TxFXMUUrx4WJ6mZUo7fcyTYCho9dqDUy+w=; b=kl850vKQunMmLL2fFdfWe/54hgrYco0Yh8dAgAL9WByMdYHhl65pFvQ7wtUQQxXHod 4Dzi9xRH5/5MLEToVNxoNSdO01bWOHkyXQiZGWM9FWbsueQfyzcF3SXWHLP2A8DMHwX4 YTWdcALmDmiJAvK1PlbSQ/YF766lSGcErlnQdXKvmbcBVLTTPDrJE1H+Zd7KD2yPIxZa tS0ny4SAg2wtuWtQKxfoU3uukxxjoWb/dTFuSuONlbFTHDMjO8HidHCAIAwuLrGt5Hmq /VzdbvoUIAeEjTimQiTO+bz+dNMQyvXtlqwtCOlq0Q05u7/rzuQE1ztl7n/ppAhGv0UY tnDQ== Received: by 10.224.210.66 with SMTP id gj2mr79375qab.48.1355352671379; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.131.136 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.131.136 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:51:11 -0800 (PST) References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:51:11 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Tim Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net BTW, the only prepaid carrier that uses Verizon's network is Page Plus. If you have an old Verizon phone lying around, you can use it with them. Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 15:53:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E674A40FDC for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:53:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f169.google.com (mail-gh0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2212240511 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:53:44 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f169.google.com with SMTP id r11so342744ghr.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:52:54 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=edBZ8Vl5YiWJBIBX8anzBbMZYaFNcox6FFKMNsaOCb0=; b=ija475pWx51k3GZiMR2UcTaCn1OW8nh/xiUEziZqNErniNG+pUwsve+Hna50tbqQ82 vI75WZbqej+vqEp3UEhSgnG1vGa7PJwMcGmeMRaBSNzO2ps8TKTBsERXf+U6oWYSd3XJ kNw3E2xiKmjWLfh9DLkrWpFe/+mGnBkNAczHTnahOa1eY6A7W3wowheQH7zVn61G/uWQ rTEA4kNK+Cw6IHgB8ExITqQaxTxUB9ImCCCQ9A5S8nacVrmHo8r3o6+d2PiqwmCaZ4f0 /dfvpd8Ffim5u8LLZdQMYPOH8fipmzalC7DyfyAvZyYtTPdvVospwC9EPBa0v9LwlIrJ O/Mg== Received: by 10.236.134.195 with SMTP id s43mr4218627yhi.64.1355352774257; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v8sm36721468yhi.15.2012.12.12.14.52.53 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:52:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:52:49 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Do the prepaid phones need to have E911 capability? I've got every old cell phone I've ever had in a drawer somewhere--it'd be cool to rock the Kyocera 6135 still. On 12/12/2012 5:51 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > BTW, the only prepaid carrier that uses Verizon's network is Page Plus. > If you have an old Verizon phone lying around, you can use it with them. > > Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 16:00:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4856940E3F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:00:54 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm34.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm34.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [72.30.238.192]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C631640417 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:00:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.212.148] by nm34.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 22:59:53 -0000 Received: from [98.139.215.248] by tm5.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 22:59:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1061.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2012 22:59:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 94646 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2012 22:59:53 -0000 s=s1024; t=1355353193; bh=5dd52HYtMaqFPWy5dj8nINMhXot1jWNchUgzfbS+Fec=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Bd48cZtFP7PamYm/I4zIvR9LTHjNwomUxEOpo1imFwq4nUTjQ8Wbywz1uYgpF1+DIV5So9H2XZWB8Hek1mlVFvzW5Ip/vFSCvx0PyFIb2ytj8zs8mYptq3AG4JFJoquv/WFC5TIJ5rF2q/PkXOhKXJDhmKjT1ANw3UoDGMfe1YM= s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=dyhDJvgaqqzvz67aoBhTSpFXBOn1w1Wbco0DAydHeg2Yk+ZsOhOSBADguY2o64PyeeIE4HdlvlZfgKZdTsLb640LGqC/EHvgAtz/mYdVlmMsGXVNpVJLvx3Vah3JZtLbuoansLY0C1I9jja1BW9Ld1k0fea4WF5xlUwspc5+1Fk=; PRC9dNPYwpGok99Dnvn.2uUXvEuf2joN8Cq4eBLdVHcbIsD1L0GiM.h6Ovzj HgpxsZTGu3f1chum5vYpy_fCytvQvlWhJgcCmg4X2ztsLo6Uot7_K2U0D3Ta INHNwq5TelPkBm1HPInN6tOyaGmZyFEjVr8uuF9G9xTWclBtz7rKUxK82apU _UWVNipGLrgk6OROcWzWWSjFqOC3NfZCAN5AmemynWZSumXihx6_cMxjAoLE 0QSI4E3qE5CdvnBy_.D1.qIbvljm75JlNe27EoJtUsoVH.FFyzmyNzNjZj.z Q0IHNpqvkz9P5SSubk3DBDJJeijU5TSKYxCgVKOlRYNwJK0rf19x_A2wRlJD cG59oFI3j7Ab5rzPcV_XhPB9kFcYyWoF7Htof6_xyMtatcy3.F.0VdhTqsGV vbs6UQPbYzJsTISFRifbdYBkyanTmHx8vngfKcvNpRN7Cx2_88t4ki1U2eek XD1pOy2eUZdiXLt47gh0- Received: from [74.161.1.68] by web140001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:59:53 PST LS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLQoKPiBGcm9tOiBLYXJsIFZhY2VrIDxrdmFjZWtAYW1lcml0ZWNoLm5ldD4KPiBUbzogc2hvcC10YWxrQGF1dG94LnRlYW0ubmV0Cj4gQ2M6IAo.IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMTIsIDIwMTIgMjo0NCBQTQo.IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbU2hvcC10YWxrXSBBbm90aGVyIHdhbmRlcmluZyBvZmYtdG9waWMuLi4uLkdQUwo.IAooc25pcCkKwqBJZiBJIGV2ZXIgZGVjaWRlIHRvIGJ1eSBhIGRlZGljYXRlZCBhaXJjcmFmdCBHUFMsIEknbGwgYnV5Cj4BMAEBAQE- References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> <0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com> <50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com> <001501cdd8a1$0d93d9a0$28bb8ce0$@ameritech.net> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:59:53 -0800 (PST) From: Battmain To: shoptalk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ----- Original Message ----- > From: Karl Vacek > To: shop-talk@autox.team.net > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS > (snip) If I ever decide to buy a dedicated aircraft GPS, I'll buy > any other brand than a Garmin. > (snip) In terms of aircraft GPS, the competition is pretty good right now. Based on my experience, the Aviation Garmin units are more intuitive than the other manufacturers in doing everything. Flight Plans, moving maps, deviations, etc. I've been impressed with some of the stuff coming out though. Each manufacturer trying to one up the other. I've never warmed up to any of the car units, because of the lack of detail when zoomed out. I went from a computer based mapping with GPS to my phone and have pretty much used that since. The maps and traffic are more accurate in my experience since the Google maps are in the 'cloud' as opposed to being loaded in a local file. I may move to an Android phone next year to replace my 5 year old smartphone, but haven't decided yet. Waiting on the Samsung S4 to be released. A new phone is a want not a need. :) B _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 16:20:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A6C40E43 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:20:16 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7D340511 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:18:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qBCNHIEU081073; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:17:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:17:13 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Tim , Shop Talk List References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/12/2012 5:29 PM, Tim wrote: > Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones? > thanks Off topic, but I'm curious too! (pls copy me or list, unless anyone is really opposed to the addl traffic.) I have a Virgin Mobile "Pay Lo" phone. They offer everything from a $15 or $20 flip phone, which I have, up to smart phones. Payment plans are on different scales: you can get cheap minutes (0.05 - 0.10) but there is a minimum you have to spend every month, or minutes may not carry over. On the other end of the scale (what I'm doing) you pay a big ol' 0.20/min, but you only have to put a lousy $20 every 3 months on the thing, then the accumulated minutes roll over forever. Their web site is easy to use and has all the details, and their support people have been decent to deal with. I only keep it around for emergency use, so a dirt cheap phone and $80 a year in service works for me. It blows me away how many folks are spending $1,000-ish annually for fancy phones. Virgin Mobile is on Sprint's network, and the coverage is not the greatest. Got it through Best Buy, who also demanded an ID and some personal info -- possibly a turn off if you're looking for anonymity, but there are work arounds there I suppose. More people around here (western North Carolina) have Verizon -- great coverage, even in the mountains and some of the fastest 4G in the country (40+ Mbs). Their pre-paid plans are pretty dang expensive also, AND they have something like a "$1 per day, each day you make or receive a call." One of the BIG KICK ASS deals (IMO) that I've been trying to turn friends onto is Verizon's "Home Phone Connect". As an alternative to a land-line, they offer cell service in a box you can use with your traditional home phones. You get a black box looks a lot like a wi-fi router, has a cell radio in it, 2 RJ11 jacks on the back for phones, and electronics to drive them. And a rechargeable battery to keep it alive in power outages. I have a 3 handset cordless Panasonic set plugged in. Then the other line plugs into the wall jack and back-feeds ring tone to the other jacks in the house for a few hard-wired phones. Just disconnect from papa-bell and splice all your house wiring together. I am told the sound quality is better than the AT&T land-line I used to have. Apparently the shitty sound quality on cells is due to the phone and not the network (I HATE cell phone sound quality.) Caveat! -- there is some major digital compression going on, optimized for human voice. Music on hold sounds garbled, and you can not run a modem or fax over it, and some home alarm services may not work. Kicker -- it's only $20 a month, plus tax and fees (mine totals like $23.86) for unlimited local and long distance calling. Or if you have Verizon mobiles, you can share minutes with them (including unlimited time plans) and get it for only $10 a month!!!!! -Wayne ( !#@!$ AT&T !!!!!!!) _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 17:10:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF9040E41 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:10:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0D440417 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:10:29 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gxgeb01Z7ClpQpFs0e5uLJTshy0PNcTN8X1hhycofcIktqE9JV0etkphi3c38FQj; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.194.241.253] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TiwMs-0003Yt-74; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:09:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:08:24 -0800 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: Gerald Brazil References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Gerald - Lots of us share your annoyance with Garmin. I have a Nuvi (265 I think). I always try and look at a map first. I also use fastest time setting, but for me, it thinks Pacific Coast Highway through Long Beach, CA with traffic lights and congestion is faster than driving a little bit further on the freeway at 75mph (non-peak traffic). I think the issue is that it ignores red light stoppage time and assumes you will travel the speed limit unless there is a traffic delay. I've also noticed that Garmin traffic tends to lag behind reality. When I'm going home at the tail end of traffic, I tend to ignore Garmin's warnings about congestion ahead, but pay more attention when traffic starts to back up. Before leaving work, I normally check traffic on Google Maps as Los Angeles traffic is a mess, but I have yet to move to a smart phone, so Ms. Nuvi still keeps me company. If I could make another reprogramming suggestion to the GPS manufactures, I'd also have then say "you missed the turn. Make a U-turn now." Instead, it tries to route me on a collection of streets to drive around the block. Brian On 12/12/2012 10:02 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote: > I have a Garmin Nuvi 255w and it does one annoying thing that I haven't > figured out how to beat. I hope the crowd intelligence of this group can > help. Let me give you a recent example... > > > > We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our > destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of > Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near Nashville > toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a > very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have > been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around > Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on "shortest > distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is > there any other way to avoid downtown congestion? > > > > Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?" > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 17:15:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7888740E52 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:15:43 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f169.google.com (mail-gh0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D6940400 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:15:37 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f169.google.com with SMTP id r11so354979ghr.14 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:14:46 -0800 (PST) h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/pt2R5lxbgdeb3INkXslRWJUoqJoT8pnvZWazsDLBhU=; b=iJq3lyfdGc/r5r6pf6RLsDdDJbHk/RI4nPMfEj9i18dP+ZlGSXK/Be7GQum6uVlkhq BukUi4G3jxSjzokdcjckvKuaBbL4zt0jP2AoE8ocAavhxM5FiIZqfLMcEW05YIEnOb44 K6n/V2lNaHGC1qWmmFswwZGSFxCwiYL7vcbUq/aRITbpRV2+MiRFSTCTkEJiFgkOcpgP nSWudL2mfQ7QyKMKxVN3u9JPS6/8VkMS3XvrnAc+2V7QOxylq2chVVQflksMy6dKfA7P CW2Ymlfk4qCSYPtfeYo1MqITJISY2ecr5SfBGkaGj1ZvI6hSUOEQMaMEBHFBo4LQhfXI VMng== Received: by 10.236.119.179 with SMTP id n39mr4540221yhh.129.1355357686901; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f14sm768026anl.0.2012.12.12.16.14.45 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:14:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:14:41 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> <50C91C78.70809@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Maybe a dozen years ago, I had a GPS unit do just that--it got stuck in a 'loop' when I missed an interstate exit. It had me exit at the next ramp, get back on the interstate going the opposite direction, then off at the next exit and head back in the original direction. It is a testament to my intelligence that I only followed its directions for two loops before I decided to ignore it (on the third loop). I read after that that early GPS systems were prone to that sort of thing. On 12/12/2012 7:08 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > If I could make another reprogramming suggestion to the GPS > manufactures, I'd also have then say "you missed the turn. Make a > U-turn now." Instead, it tries to route me on a collection of streets > to drive around the block. > > Brian _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 19:24:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1B040E3F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:24:15 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from haybaler.sackheads.org (haybaler.sackheads.org [140.186.190.103]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA7B40429 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:23:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE34D285A0 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from haybaler.sackheads.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (haybaler.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qw4NPNX-aXfo for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 92ED128479; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:22:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:22:07 -0500 From: Jimmie Mayfield To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 01:02:32PM -0500, Gerald Brazil wrote: > We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our > destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of > Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near Nashville > toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a > very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have > been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around > Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on "shortest > distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is > there any other way to avoid downtown congestion? My nuvi 1490 will do the same thing when set to "fastest time". Example: As I approach my destination in Lexington KY from I-75S, the nuvi will tell me to exit the interstate early and take 6-7 miles of curvy 2-lane country roads featuring stop signs, a blind curve and the occasional horse trailer. Garmin's route easily adds 15 minutes onto the trip versus simply staying on the interstate at 70mph for another 4 exits (maybe 10 miles). And that's assuming the weather is good. Granted, Garmin's route is prettier but I didn't tell Garmin to choose the prettiest route... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 12 20:10:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB4E40E47 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:10:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.226]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581BF4053F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:10:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.167]) by out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 13 Dec 2012 03:09:26 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-149-114.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.149.114]) by relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3319B17CC9; Thu, 13 Dec 2012 03:09:24 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:09:32 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: Tim References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net> Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My wife and I have had Tracfones for several years. It costs us about $100 a year to add minutes and I have a ton of minutes. Neither of us are big cell phone users, and we don't have cell service out where we live unless I wander around out in the driveway to see if I can get one or two bars to come up, sometimes. My wife never even programmed the VM into her phone. We both have the cheapest (free) phones they have. Needless to say we don't text at all. I have black Western Electric Model 500 rotary phones in the office and out in the shoppe, although I did buy a little plug in keypad so I can play phone tree hell when necessary. On 12/12/2012 2:29 PM, Tim wrote: > Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones? > thanks > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd@frontier.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 16 21:05:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF7240646 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:05:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mania.lunarmania.com (mania.lunarmania.com [67.210.98.240]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACB34044D for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:05:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from 99-7-68-55.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net ([99.7.68.55]:57522 helo=[192.168.1.101]) by mania.lunarmania.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TkRwA-0006ZX-9Z for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:04:18 -0800 References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com> <0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com> <50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com> <001501cdd8a1$0d93d9a0$28bb8ce0$@ameritech.net> From: Bob Nogueira Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:04:20 -0600 To: Shop Talk with any abuse report bob@texmog.com Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've solved the issue of routing through the middle of town two ways, I'll set a waypoint on the loop, or I'll simply remember to take the loop and let the old girl b*t*h at me until I have shown her who is boss and she changes the route to how I want to go. Bob ( note: the "she" is the Garmin voice NOT my wife.) Whee saved that one in the nick of time! ) Sent from my iPad On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:44 PM, "Karl Vacek" wrote: > Google traffic is vastly more useful than the alleged traffic that I get in > my Garmin Nuvi 3590. The traffic reports in the Nuvi are (in my > observation, in Chicago) at most 25% accurate when they warn of traffic. > Accuracy is far less than that when considering actual traffic jams that it > does not report. > > Google traffic, OTOH, seems to be at least 75% accurate both ways - there is > usually traffic when it reports it, and it usually reports actual traffic I > find. Speed of reporting seems good too - I've found new traffic jams on > roads previously clear, and watched to see when the jam appears on the > traffic map. Maybe 5-10 minutes the couple of times I've seen that happen. > > Also - with lots of touchscreen pushing you can view the traffic along your > route on the Garmin, but then you need to return to your map to use it. > Google traffic on my Android phone is there all the time if I want it - just > turn the traffic layer on. Can't do that on the Garmin. I wish Garmin > would just buy Google's traffic. > > I really wonder how Garmin got to be the "standard" for GPS units. Based on > my use of my new 3590 LMT (their top automotive unit) and an older C60 > hiking unit I received as a gift and used in the car occasionally for a few > years, Garmin is a disappointment. Clumsy to use, poor manuals, and just > not reliable. If I ever decide to buy a dedicated aircraft GPS, I'll buy > any other brand than a Garmin. > > Karl > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bob@texmog.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 17 18:57:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A2A40E64 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:57:35 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm19-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm19-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.172]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B17D40425 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:57:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.99] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 01:56:02 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.173] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 01:56:02 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 01:56:02 -0000 s=s1024; t=1355795762; bh=RrmOypVqD6jzZgFypkLpVhUabWCkjaFryD3zHVC17+k=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=2GaeNiEZPIrog+ArBJmndCAKdLFhZ2bYXWR5xTIS2oC9ieePjsEIfzj8LSHdaqB8OuSnYRdOLgKGPxs7dyRgLMHH5kO3o1dBn5JAldHiAqk0uw5bvWJTB4upPANZl4gOd17W6vTLSLxbsHz8RPOYt1rd+X0gir/c9s+f/QP4nOI= x0N2Dslr85Qp.__J2mR..LN_kAqQv8NXUsOklakAlZolCaomQFaw.QgcqVMx aN6OZZCLJj0nRO6VjrupXw6ilq11fUVhYrM65QoSGqg2gNkjOk217X6Xr9al 7Q64JX7hVb3efONbSNweVDWGSZ.h06SKoAuqQCFDI8UMsgnaqgPH2iq23kMe 5cyquVQ61LGwL5BvYVHf0MV5nhFi08bk6iflLUWi4SGgNjeddn2HcBgINBxT yeJNmxggty83AjiklbXOEpJreQvKPaiSjC7AuGjmcudVoMu0GAHzVbBVnsA7 SUgRy3HRGj_b9KR2mzqNlQ7n_DSVsE3F_EObpqeRfzfn_SK3gApHPxT01YbQ t57I8LDNASztdHbD.mAiiT6flKYzf3gWCFs1e7rmIfec- Received: from john5043a2d406 (jniolon@108.227.226.77 with login) by smtp107.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2012 17:56:02 -0800 PST From: "John Niolon" To: "shop-talk" Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 20:00:41 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and is now free standing) that I use at Christmas to warm my deck during gatherings. The deck is screened and wrapped in poly and with the heater it will stay around 65-70 inside at 35-40 outside... good enough for the smokers and the folks that are tired of the crowd. Every year I drag it to the deck with a couple tanks of propane and every year I drag it back in storage... 40 bucks lighter for the propane. As I set up this year I finally realized that I had an unlimited supply of nat gas 10 feet away at the gas grill... I'm about to become a convert ! Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION on this heater. Not one to be dissuaded by technical knowledge, common sense and other hokum, I'm on a quest to convert... Anyone got any ideas ??? I haven't taken it apart yet... it has five blocks that are lit as the control knob is turned up (low, med, high... 1 block,3 block, 5 block respectively) I would think a orifice change (if it's removable) and maybe a gas valve (if it has one). Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ??? I'm open to all conversations... I'm not the best gas guru, but I can make a leak free joint ! thanks John What every man worth his salt should know how to do..... Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer Make a wish come true - for someone else, keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear make a child giggle...tell a ghost story write a love letter, ask for directions _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 17 21:39:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79410403EF for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:39:07 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD7A403E0 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:38:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qBI4b5lJ053580; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:37:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:36:56 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net, jniolon@att.net References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/17/2012 9:00 PM, John Niolon wrote: > I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and is > .. Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION on this heater. Not one to be Really?! I thought that was a DESA brand, and they went belly up a few years ago. Pretty sure they made the gas (LP) logs in my place. Maybe someone bought out the brand names -- oh well, not important. There is usually some kinda brass orifice that meters the gas flow that can be swapped out. LP runs like 2 or 3 PSI, and natural gas about 0.25 or 0.5, IIRC. (May be WAY off there, but the pressures are a bunch different.) I'd google the part or model number and see if you can find anyone selling parts for it. Sears.com and AppliancePartPros.com are my first go-to sites for parts. There's a good chance the manufacturer originally sold conversion parts for it, and you can still buy them. May even be some carry over or interchangeability between brands. Don't know of any other way to reliably convert. Unless you had some good specs and a way to precisely machine new orifice(s) for it (not totally unthinkable for this crowd.) > Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ??? Uuhhmm... yeah. Pretty readily and literally! -w _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 17 21:55:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB4740400 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:55:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from e9.ny.us.ibm.com (e9.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.139]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3C5403E8 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:55:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from /spool/local by e9.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for from ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:53:55 -0500 Received: from d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (9.56.250.168) by e9.ny.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.109) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:53:54 -0500 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 855B0C9003C; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (d03av06.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.245]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id qBI4rqXT331972; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:53:53 -0500 Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id qBI4ttIP023507; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:55:55 -0700 Received: from d03mc126.boulder.ibm.com (d03mc126.boulder.ibm.com [9.63.40.109]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id qBI4ttut023487; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:55:55 -0700 References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406> <50CFF2E8.9060000@xxiii.com> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net, shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net From: Jim Marton Jr Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:53:31 -0500 ZX853FP2HF2|October 8, 2012) at 12/17/2012 21:53:51 x-cbid: 12121804-7182-0000-0000-000003DBBAC1 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've converted a Big Easy oil less fryer and a patio heater from LP to natural gas. Not that hard. Other than connecting to just gas line, all you have to do is figure out what size to drill out the orifice. You will need a set of number drills. Jim From: Wayne To: shop-talk@autox.team.net, jniolon@att.net, Date: 12/17/2012 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas Sent by: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/17/2012 9:00 PM, John Niolon wrote: > I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and is > .. Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION on this heater. Not one to be Really?! I thought that was a DESA brand, and they went belly up a few years ago. Pretty sure they made the gas (LP) logs in my place. Maybe someone bought out the brand names -- oh well, not important. There is usually some kinda brass orifice that meters the gas flow that can be swapped out. LP runs like 2 or 3 PSI, and natural gas about 0.25 or 0.5, IIRC. (May be WAY off there, but the pressures are a bunch different.) I'd google the part or model number and see if you can find anyone selling parts for it. Sears.com and AppliancePartPros.com are my first go-to sites for parts. There's a good chance the manufacturer originally sold conversion parts for it, and you can still buy them. May even be some carry over or interchangeability between brands. Don't know of any other way to reliably convert. Unless you had some good specs and a way to precisely machine new orifice(s) for it (not totally unthinkable for this crowd.) > Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ??? Uuhhmm... yeah. Pretty readily and literally! -w _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmarton@us.ibm.com [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of graycol.gif] _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 17 22:42:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C2D403F7 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 22:42:29 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f173.google.com (mail-ob0-f173.google.com [209.85.214.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A2F403EB for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 22:42:17 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ob0-f173.google.com with SMTP id xn12so209529obc.18 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:41:01 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vt0cxLMzuJw2DNu7/rLVP6D7pi+pyQ+xWw2ThQeBo9M=; b=MtHC6L88kcI6VAT8/YJtyMraHogGA4qGiid0I/iNjLVmcvL8JP7iX+nSlGQ1zMTqqD drkF5UwII5X6I/73JEUGVyt9/AX0Cxaw4LPfi0eCRVHqQKR7h1qJwe9AmIqRHkWVfihY MHeinLRolWxxcHeNv2wDrpAu04hHXVTgEOZGAzXqIchsgyw0Jzs4HeA29Qn6lA9hsplS iFzrB8XWWb6CQOwMpKvqYHsiPOFqAE72THB6r65IVxVXOqq/dHiIwUiZ6vEnqlq09E17 JtPQDgCT6h6WjDWX2Qc5Xdff4/q33AbdvboyEbPRnB38DXJWRwlMztPhBW1LblVahsHB vrYg== Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [107.18.33.157] (dhcp107-18-33-157.hil-rldvdt.den.wayport.net. [107.18.33.157]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j7sm588039obv.7.2012.12.17.21.40.58 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:40:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:40:46 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net A long time ago a neighbor converted the permanently-installed grill on his porch from LP to N.G. Himself. The house didn't go boom so I assume he did it okay. Everything I've ever heard is that it's just a jet swap--our grill came with two screw-in 'regulators' (jets, I assume)--depending on which fuel you used, you put in the appropriate one. But having said that... On 12/17/2012 9:00 PM, John Niolon wrote: > Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ??? > That's probably the idea I'd be afraid of. This'd be one of those things I'd be dead-nuts certain about before I did it. I'm sure if you couldn't buy the part you could have one machined up...but the consequences if it was wrong plus the cost and hassle of having that part machined... I'd probably just shop for a new heater. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 02:31:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C803940401 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 02:31:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront4.g2host.com [208.42.184.242]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF96403E4 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 02:30:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO HP62011) by mailfront4.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPA id 89945754; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 03:28:54 -0600 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: "John Niolon" , "shop-talk" References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 03:28:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Can it be done ... I assume so ... http://www.joppaglass.com/burner/lowp_chrt.html http://www.masterdist.net/glowarm/infraredheaters/index.html As other have suggested "should it be done" is the real question. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/gas-kitchen-appliances-dryers-bbqs/408085-drilling-orifice-convert-propane-gas-natural-gas.html http://www.carlsgrilltalk.com/contents/index.php?view=article&catid=4&id=2%3Alp-to-natural-gas-conversion&format=pdf&option=com_content&Itemid=16 -----Original Message----- From: John Niolon Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:00 PM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and is now free standing) that I use at Christmas to warm my deck during gatherings. The deck is screened and wrapped in poly and with the heater it will stay around 65-70 inside at 35-40 outside... good enough for the smokers and the folks that are tired of the crowd. Every year I drag it to the deck with a couple tanks of propane and every year I drag it back in storage... 40 bucks lighter for the propane. As I set up this year I finally realized that I had an unlimited supply of nat gas 10 feet away at the gas grill... I'm about to become a convert ! Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION on this heater. Not one to be dissuaded by technical knowledge, common sense and other hokum, I'm on a quest to convert... Anyone got any ideas ??? I haven't taken it apart yet... it has five blocks that are lit as the control knob is turned up (low, med, high... 1 block,3 block, 5 block respectively) I would think a orifice change (if it's removable) and maybe a gas valve (if it has one). Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ??? I'm open to all conversations... I'm not the best gas guru, but I can make a leak free joint ! thanks John What every man worth his salt should know how to do..... Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer Make a wish come true - for someone else, keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear make a child giggle...tell a ghost story write a love letter, ask for directions _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj@visi.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 07:17:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F169840431 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:17:34 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from blu0-omc2-s35.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s35.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3572403F9 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:17:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from BLU168-W82 ([65.55.111.71]) by blu0-omc2-s35.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:16:03 -0800 From: marty sukey To: shop-talk list Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:16:03 -0500 FILETIME=[36B1CF80:01CDDD2A] Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master bath started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse??? As the float is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering takes place. Any ideas? Marty _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 07:46:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B732940522 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:46:22 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B78403FE for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:46:15 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:32:50 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 12/18/2012 09:32:52, Serialize complete at 12/18/2012 09:32:52 Cc: marty sukey Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Marty, Is there an "expansion tank" in your house? If so, drain the water from it (it should have an easy drain valve.) The expansion tank should be a small 10 gal or so tank (like one on a portable compressor) that has one water line run it.) Note, I'm not an expert, but this works for me. Enjoy! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson marty sukey Sent by: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net 12/18/2012 09:04 AM To shop-talk list cc Subject [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master bath started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse??? As the float is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering takes place. Any ideas? Marty ______________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 07:48:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324DF406AD for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:48:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm27-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm27-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.188]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB09D40405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:48:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.102] by nm27.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 14:47:32 -0000 Received: from [67.195.15.62] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 14:47:32 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp103.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 14:47:32 -0000 s=s1024; t=1355842052; bh=9xeu+mEx3XYrczvU0a8zJ/mo+NK+T4LpYVrIwAEniwg=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=IkA/6/MjIQZqJwldxoDj+mi9D3omJCf9g8TPnnBjKRTGzRSyr+rRHkjVTlT0RBE4NZe8XJcWKel16swS56kEeRHVpvufd9iDrM2WT/uWS5VJJKDHC6V5Cn5zC1u7NdMXadOvQN8mrYyS9+fylE2j5IfEeZWOnFeo2aD5xXjzumM= jlAP1l1EKQxz0EAHNxKinnowU5EVV6suYQwpeX9rY4gykEd_cc7iqFrDLIaF m356zT8qBuBPjlhATg1CgCGvabzmr0HcBfPej30wCi1VzgoD9Lj8lw4Np4YR bBGFOC2mG2diwuK.KgoYRQEbMvYZmZOlXe6CEFk_7mkMHMIcL1AcRXZIEQcO pFWL7FIZHalSenZ5SnkjqdEOzbmYVcVOiyvEUWGsOedxTuSI8ecl36P2Zdmo .BBcqLRojzMmojV.Yk4KxZ8P42LiJCsI_LDnAYM9HbpPmzlVqIvDF0JAP64s nmiZD_ENpvImB_Z7CsrMtqV84yxC3Qt97Vi_INuvoOZ5.jrU_L9E5P5yaQ7F G1aGLN5kEZAXvRseym6YjuRGmMqBmcahqHJiK6mb3jrdx7exrCpVmfSa5SMX ZYF1UI2awv33C.xmJH6g4KqTD.WzCSxlMT5PXP.mSXopztdze Received: from Karl (kvacek@75.21.94.211 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2012 06:47:32 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'marty sukey'" , "'shop-talk list'" References: Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:46:53 -0600 Thread-Index: AQJdDDe1kgcOGknkhVrjGhhP1MSS9pcAP7aQ Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sounds like classic water hammer. As the tank float drops, the fill valve opens and water flow begins. Might be that the new fill is just a little more crisp in opening, giving a quicker start to the water flow, and more hammer than with the old valve. There should be a hammer trap in the water feed line near the valve on the wall. It's supposed to be full of air to absorb fast changes in water pressure, which is what causes water hammer. Over time, the air becomes entrained in the water, and the hammer trap fills with water. Eventually there's just not enough air cushion left and hammer begins. The trap is just a vertical length of pipe teed into the line with a cap on top. It will be sealed in the wall, so you can't directly drain it or refill it with air. That means thoroughly draining that run of pipe. It's often not much harder to drain everything in the house at the same time and avoid the same thing happening somewhere else soon. In a long ranch house that's a little more difficult, but what you need to do is get a drain opening in the water supply line as close to the shutoff valve as possible. Shut off the supply valve, open something as close to the supply as possible and arrange a way for a few gallons of water to drain without destroying your house, and then, starting at the furthest fixture, open all faucets and flush all toilets to get all the water out of the system. Hammer traps may take a while to drain down, but they should all do so eventually. You may have to remove the supply line to toilets to make them drain properly, but usually just flushing the toilet will do the trick. You want to start at the far end so you have maximum siphon effect and don't leave a pocket of water somewhere, which can take longer of be really difficult to drain. Karl -----Original Message----- From: marty sukey Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master bath started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse??? As the float is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering takes place. Any ideas? Marty _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 08:15:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A46F40E22 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:15:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.48]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 064E140568 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:15:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.52]) by qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id d02a1k00917dt5G553ERUP; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:14:25 +0000 Received: from [192.168.82.100] ([71.235.119.87]) by omta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id d3EQ1k00G1tDsSn3Z3EQrQ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:14:25 +0000 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:14:03 -0500 From: "Peter J. Thomas" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: marty sukey References: s=q20121106; t=1355843665; bh=NZVOxmf585aDcTSybTjfx60a6AVWQbinfYQEKwyr/Oo=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=GJIco+Peb4pUoUfNnBHHC+YovMaZXNc89PJUn/bvS7adbEHbuDR9/p/lsJ7nkTsuj TAect6Oh09yxz+fJygMhoO99shx9YoOLJiVKVWLoipVcuRwW/QaugJGeIRngiAZTiW 2i5i9pIUwAisRU/a6hPB/R0+JFXTOUcVpGLgqglWIJOzpBWwCG7qxN472PgfdgOyu/ ZeXXMsbsBk2HJQGpvJbOh2dHqRUoBa3dj58A/zai1W2yl7VliHiF1V8QyRBUiaoE7D /Hgp2QqhraqSo8hYXLCxWEyL8fNsrqYF/VHTbqUEbnkE5MMPfRefdh/PUlonUkroqy acyu3Ct04f5cw== Cc: shop-talk list Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/18/2012 9:16 AM, marty sukey wrote: > I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the > house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master bath > started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace > the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse??? As the float > is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering > takes place. Any ideas? I have a well and so have an expansion buffer in the form of a well tank. I have had this hammering affect because of the value oscillating. The valve opens and because of vibrations it briefly closes and reopens. More vibration. An air buffer may help but not always. I've found simply partially closing down the shutoff valve cures the problem. Toilet fills a little slower. > > Marty > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 08:57:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A459E40570 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:57:57 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm27.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm27.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.186]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9EB40570 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:57:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.215.140] by nm27.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 15:56:27 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.238] by tm11.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 15:56:27 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1047.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Dec 2012 15:56:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 62968 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2012 15:56:27 -0000 s=s1024; t=1355846187; bh=p6Vw8iTBPBZBC+/NcPsbMduzcZGIXL4ENwCM3QGpyAI=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ONETA45S56L9gOtprnBI6GSE3PlPFzakPFCfpzbSfrTiZK6foCnswGJw/AOjQZ3p1EEXozTFrU04jMaA6YcpNtehjnELyuzF1plDk+9Yt5Wxu8721nkN2rbcnhd+tNbu94dpAHL+C9qp0+PORswgWRx9grHcV+sOQUEFOsGyTTo= s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=0fwKaiGis+V2cux1ISPH5CnZJAEqSWl0b2vOfKENXPur5iFasXl1Gro+IeY0IMOS85F3Eqy9AWi1nIrzLMwWOVHnuydT90uvtEi/CRnsMC68p8PLkH+TAGIWH88K5tams0H/YGcuWRNnxD+i1zs4aLEFU6VW6zvgjBztHARTOvo=; 8n6WWwSa5fXFJTxrKop6xLwo0XnhWU0TLHZbKFfISk1hCaCWhCAOoAjOx9Bi UaD1ralQ2BlVwVth7SsZTxatNYZsIfIWxoFc4wgbsK8fDes4R2iM8hwUuvrD gzbpFtrU6NRQMoAL0el.iqw8JbxewWYHy9ZGa9R4WPMsyRAw3u.z71ScVRq1 NYQprHOoNWMLPBe2D0Y_V2cHeqNgBW.Nhgdsb08zqgW0F1QQq7dDzYzznbLs xhf463PeNwo.Ymil0QjUfHnrixy7Sc8VKH.cjcJ2R4ZIjbXiUntjAOaDc0yW 3PltHhjv8MXSwAZkUgKFlr5I49sdue8sBmOnXgPxspCsCeEozE41HCxrn9gW psWaLfUFgItFvPgO0GM5v3zRI13LoKoxV7KbCFhBC0LN_jfIHCFuxL03YCTV gtLiLY5HErrZf5q1eB5P8EV41ocFWccxoIiLgeycE3l3uJWLB8jEevPrD2KV TIGhWak1XJ3.WwUV0jtR. Received: from [173.252.176.138] by web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:56:26 PST CgpUcnkgcmVkdWNpbmcgdGhlIHdhdGVyIHByZXNzdXJlLiBFaXRoZXIgYXQgdGhlIHZhbHZlIHVuZGVyIHRoZSB0YW5rIG9yIGF0IHRoZSBtYWluIHNodXRvZmYuCllvdSBzaG91bGQgYmUgYWJsZSB0byByZWR1Y2UgaXQgd2l0aG91dCBoYXZpbmcgYSBub3RpY2VhYmxlIGVmZmVjdCBvbiB0aGUgb3RoZXIgb3V0bGV0cy4KVGhlIG9ubHkgdGhpbmcgdG8gYmUgYXdhcmUgb2YgaXMgdGhlIHZhbHZlIHVuZGVyIHRoZSB0b2lsZXQgbWlnaHQgbGVhayBvZiB5b3UgdG91Y2ggaXQuwqAKCkIKCgoKPl9fX19fX19fX18BMAEBAQE- References: Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:56:26 -0800 (PST) From: Battmain To: shoptalk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Try reducing the water pressure. Either at the valve under the tank or at the main shutoff. You should be able to reduce it without having a noticeable effect on the other outlets. The only thing to be aware of is the valve under the toilet might leak of you touch it. B >________________________________ > From: marty sukey >To: shop-talk list >Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:16 AM >Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet > >I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the >house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master bath >started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace >the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse??? As the float >is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering >takes place. Any ideas? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 21:46:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F4156424D3 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 21:46:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vb0-f47.google.com (mail-vb0-f47.google.com [209.85.212.47]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC0B4043B for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 21:45:59 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vb0-f47.google.com with SMTP id e21so1829999vbm.20 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:44:38 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=gglr8dsNySY23vZYvfJ/lD7Rjmll97HnoWo/uEyYQ6k=; b=AD/1x6//JDUHWf2oaJZZA1nHPz5i7pyRVT9nl+vuDlz09NQOH133wYeXWfrcA8sAMs MLi903lc41s/ZeUy7cJ97Pg7MCLjr1dVdXQaKUaEYUgB0G6Z9ky2OJH+tO0XqeCLhCS7 gymPpiHB/2gqSbZrEVVVuSVtxlAqJ1lT3G1ta6jMHDjeksRQh4rEFRROatAO1x3huWCj dL+m7KbmDfWXeCEvrHv/iVqNU/522V6ZSpsLGhbkRGq2cD07heZJQPlqS/h8JyfLuB+H xaI9q3HhEo4Hsz3HKx8nxzlR2SEyMrUY9twQEHil/p4ZiyhdToBZ4S2//xgdyVQ/zjoc becA== Received: by 10.58.207.196 with SMTP id ly4mr7139312vec.6.1355892277691; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:44:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:44:37 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Oscilloscope on my car's ignition Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hello, I had borrowed an oscilloscope from a friend, so it occurred to me to hook it up to the primary ignition circuit of my '31 Ford. I never realized that so much information could be gotten from the waveform! Here is a video of what I saw: http://youtu.be/Tj4ixoUG87Y Has anybody else ever scoped an antique car ignition? The waveform doesn't look like the sample waveforms I have found on the web. The main difference is the fast ringing during the burn time. The intensity of the ringing randomly switches between two levels, as the engine misfires. Has anybody ever seen that? I thought that maybe that ringing comes from the car's non-resistor plugs. But after this I hooked it up to my '72 Spitfire, which of course has resistor plugs and wires. That high-frequency ringing during the burn time was present on that car, too. Any idea where it comes from? Thanks, Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 18 23:02:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6672E4252B for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:02:48 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA7F40443 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:02:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id dEBP1k0070QkzPwA1J1Hai; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 06:01:17 +0000 Received: from SusieandMarkPC ([76.21.64.167]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id dJ1G1k0043cWj0U8NJ1GW7; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 06:01:16 +0000 From: "Mark Miller" To: Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:01:18 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3drkLBvT1em5H9TC2cs4YElxo0RA== s=q20121106; t=1355896877; bh=XH+fpWRObjLPhUmuOCulD752G6nsli7x8Nv9fcfjl0g=; h=Received:Received:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=KlVRoJjopojx16JM5HLo+byTxYPo1NyHAW2PhgnYgUveO16N3lORWzQf4ozgNLMLP LReDQ+P+gXBVJcayQdN9VhZXFyJAuhoKwzE/et0mhTv/jFMcaubOS+0/dszcZVzidN ZAjKN+7f1mhZhCeZ7Fiy5COGCS4tcIfhsduSoSqMs/bHB9M0gFNw15D3VtQJ4V98pD UKk+cqDQ+cGzkfQaGHX5BtJbcaSniMjOhlctCzV2VTlrt7ap8dYTnSXa3PjNrCitSW 1Ko4TAaY8uIJyT71KXyvd4+7sk1JEUQ6g6hIqn3UtMNwwXjs3kSvISYRS3GqhewkEl iswarZOCPo2UA== Cc: niolon@att.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Heater conversion: propane to NG. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net <<< I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and is now free standing) that I use at Christmas to warm my deck during gatherings. The deck is screened and wrapped in poly and with the heater it will stay around 65-70 inside at 35-40 outside... good enough for the smokers and the folks that are tired of the crowd. Every year I drag it to the deck with a couple tanks of propane and every year I drag it back in storage... 40 bucks lighter for the propane. As I set up this year I finally realized that I had an unlimited supply of nat gas 10 feet away at the gas grill... I'm about to become a convert ! Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION on this heater. Not one to be dissuaded by technical knowledge, common sense and other hokum, I'm on a quest to convert... Anyone got any ideas ??? I haven't taken it apart yet... it has five blocks that are lit as the control knob is turned up (low, med, high... 1 block,3 block, 5 block respectively) I would think a orifice change (if it's removable) and maybe a gas valve (if it has one). Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ??? I'm open to all conversations... I'm not the best gas guru, but I can make a leak free joint ! >>> I've gone the other way - converted my NG dryer to propane when I moved into the boonies - but it is the same fix: take out the orifice and replace it with another. In my case: larger to smaller, in your case smaller to larger. I would not recommend screwing around with sizing it yourself but finding orifices sized for what you want. Look online: you should be able to find a parts list for the heater that has two different orifices listed: one each for NG and propane use. BTW: does the heater vent safely now that it is freestanding? If you have enclosed the deck with plastic wrap you want to make sure there is enough airflow for exhaust to exhaust and for makeup air to come in for the burner. Just sayin'. Mark Miller _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Dec 20 14:45:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9373040542 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:45:34 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa07-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.236]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CC86403F6 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:45:19 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 14103 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2012 21:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (12.162.141.2) by p3plsmtpa07-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (173.201.192.236) with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2012 21:43:49 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:43:42 -0600 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oscilloscope on my car's ignition Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Doug, There are three main differences between a normal electronics oscilloscope and an engine scope. The oscilloscope has a fixed time base (horizontal scan) while the engine scope scan is based on the speed of the engine. When you speed up an engine you see the pulses get closer together, then the scan widens out to where the pulses were before. The vertical scan of an oscilloscope is linear, while the engine scope is something like a log scale so you can see the small voltage changes near zero and the top of the peaks at several KV at the same time. The oscilloscope normally has a fixed brightness to the trace (some intensify the faster beam movement) while the engine scope will always intensify the higher speed trace movement so yo can see everything clearly. Having said that, I have used an oscilloscope for ignition work for years. You just can't do everything as easily as you can with a dedicated engine scope. The ringing you see starts right after the points open and the plug fires. This ringing is caused by the collapse of the magnetic field in the coil, coupled with the condenser across the points, which are now open. This is normal and will be on all ignition systems with points, and probably early (non-CDI) ignition systems. The current flow through the spark will also affect the waveform. Try pulling a plug wire and both ground it and leave it open and see the difference in waveform. Experimentation is the best method of learning! You should be able to wrap a wire around the plug wire you are messing with and connect it to the sync input of the scope. Go to external sync and then the trace will start with that particular plug so you can see the results easier. I'm not sure what you mean by the ringing switching between two levels, but suggest that you verify that your points are in good shape, gapped correctly and are properly grounded. Most distributors have a ground wire from the contact plate to the distributor housing that can break from the continual rotating of the contact plate due to vacuum advance. Likewise there is a wire from the points to the coil connection on the outside of the distributor that can also break. Finally, make sure the condenser on the distributor is grounded solidly and connected to the points wire. If you have other questions, please feel free to contact me. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Doug Braun > Hello, > > I had borrowed an oscilloscope from a friend, so it occurred to me to hook > it up to the primary ignition circuit of my '31 Ford. I never realized that > so much information could be gotten from the waveform! > > Here is a video of what I saw: http://youtu.be/Tj4ixoUG87Y > > Has anybody else ever scoped an antique car ignition? The waveform doesn't > look like the sample waveforms I have found on the web. The main difference > is the fast ringing during the burn time. The intensity of the ringing > randomly switches between two levels, as the engine misfires. Has anybody > ever seen that? > > I thought that maybe that ringing comes from the car's non-resistor plugs. > But after this I hooked it up to my '72 Spitfire, which of course has > resistor plugs and wires. > That high-frequency ringing during the burn time was present on that car, > too. Any idea where it comes from? > > Thanks, > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Dec 20 19:19:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E49740546 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 19:19:35 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BC440541 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 19:19:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD0628405C for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 18:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-98-118-112-94.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.112.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A2BC28405B for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2012 18:17:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:17:50 -0500 To: Shop Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating like popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse grit sand on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match when you patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying drywall over it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm looking into covering it. Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but I also thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster adhere to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or should I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't take forever, but I only want to do it once. thanks, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 21 07:39:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE8440694 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 07:39:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta31.charter.net (mta31.charter.net [216.33.127.82]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C504A40557 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 07:37:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp09 ([10.20.200.9]) by mta31.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20121221143529.TNTF24708.mta31.charter.net@imp09> for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:35:29 -0500 Received: from wt08 ([209.225.8.58]) by imp09 with smtp.charter.net id eEbV1k0041F7hH505EbVMF; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:35:29 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=qdJTc5gtk0EA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=BFgROWtQaaIA:10 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=QonFpQJ2RAs7QAyEAdUA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=J0aUVQLP0FIA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=1tjqaQL0AM0UPNcVwqj5HA==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:35:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:35:29 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have basically the same situation here on all the walls and ceilings. In one room I had to remove a bunch of B=bx 6b tongue and groove (cabin type) pine boards that were on two walls in one room. I used dry wall mud to cover all the walls (and the holes that were caused when pulling out the dozens and dozens of 4" finishing nails used to hold these boards.) Long story short, the dry wall mud worked but was very time consuming, I did four walls approx. 18-20b long and it took probably half a five gallon bucket. Then there is sanding and painting. All other replies to the list please folks. Thanks! tim On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating > like > popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse > grit sand > on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match > when you > patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying > drywall over > it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm > looking > into covering it. > > Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but > I also > thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster > adhere > to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or > should > I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't > take > forever, but I only want to do it once. > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland@charter.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 21 09:13:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A714406B5 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:13:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D77403F3 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:13:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qBLGBkGB074905 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:11:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:11:40 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <7b4dc27c.1539b6.13bbde3ebb3.Webtop.48@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I grew up in a 1917 vintage house with plaster over wood lath. Have lots of experience patching plaster cracks, and I've spread a little drywall mud over the years. It's been years ago (1980s) but I think it's still relevant to current materials: plaster cures (crystallizes) and expands, like cement; mud dries and shrinks. Mud is NOT good in large layers or cracks. We had a kitchen ceiling cave in from a water leak above. Dad's initial thought was rip it all out and drywall the ceiling. But we were still able to find a guy that was an expert plasterer. He laid a couple coats on it, didn't have to do much if any sanding, and it was ready to prime & paint. I don't remember exact details (been 25 or so years ago) buy I think he used something like tile backer-board or metal lath to replace the water damaged stuff, and laid a skim coat over the whole thing. If you can still find a plasterer, I'd try them. Heard there's been some resurgence in the trade. Some high end houses go for a full skim coat of plaster over drywall, instead of just mud joints that dang near always show. -w On 12/21/2012 9:35 AM, Tim wrote: >> My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating >> like >> popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse >> grit sand >> on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match >> when you >> patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying >> drywall over >> it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm >> looking >> into covering it. >> >> Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but >> I also >> thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster >> adhere >> to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or >> should >> I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't >> take >> forever, but I only want to do it once. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 21 11:45:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0DE40E3B for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:45:21 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ee0-f51.google.com (mail-ee0-f51.google.com [74.125.83.51]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2165A40E49 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:44:39 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ee0-f51.google.com with SMTP id d4so2542518eek.38 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:43:04 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=i2mOe5Ism2Q0kzevFRIJBZA4uJgtXDg5yNRZwo4jZj0=; b=sR4RrXvfzXJcadRSL+XBhIVijcU5Frh90UQfqYGeGEJCirZhBmjd2cTTefPaREX9fF JVZit1BU0FNO8T50Y8Be59bXEupSQGSrBkYUernxSYdoBjg/qYtBOQFLHjCJZSftWTw4 4lQ7SBjypP8S/CplNCwWFdYIvOeqJYz0VGN4qdeltmwG9P2b6+CWgl+LwJ1ZEnVG89fG qvMgcP0jVOwDb9eyfhpglxP0PE2Bt6khDuDFpqFB+8yQn5Ugg/JPFFcMoP+DfKvhjBYo JNRGpdAFTN6Lrzg1jGo0cCWNpu8gT4SIpvtq8q/viiFzrCy4e7pCvKZZmaDC/3wmSvlO P02A== Received: by 10.14.214.132 with SMTP id c4mr33910247eep.18.1356115384669; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.155.195 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:43:04 -0800 (PST) References: <7b4dc27c.1539b6.13bbde3ebb3.Webtop.48@charter.net> <50D48A3C.9000907@xxiii.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:43:04 -0600 From: David Scheidt To: Wayne Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Wayne wrote: > I grew up in a 1917 vintage house with plaster over wood lath. Have lots of > experience patching plaster cracks, and I've spread a little drywall mud > over the years. It's been years ago (1980s) but I think it's still relevant > to current materials: plaster cures (crystallizes) and expands, like cement; > mud dries and shrinks. Mud is NOT good in large layers or cracks. > > We had a kitchen ceiling cave in from a water leak above. Dad's initial > thought was rip it all out and drywall the ceiling. But we were still able > to find a guy that was an expert plasterer. He laid a couple coats on it, > didn't have to do much if any sanding, and it was ready to prime & paint. I > don't remember exact details (been 25 or so years ago) buy I think he used > something like tile backer-board or metal lath to replace the water damaged > stuff, and laid a skim coat over the whole thing. > There are sheet goods (like drywall, but with a different coat, and maybe a different core) available for plastering, they're called 'blue board' (which is no doubts someone's trademark). They hang like drywall, and then get a skim goat of plaster. Metal lath still gets used, but I think just for repair work, anyone doing a big area uses the board stuff. > If you can still find a plasterer, I'd try them. Heard there's been some > resurgence in the trade. Some high end houses go for a full skim coat of > plaster over drywall, instead of just mud joints that dang near always show. > > -w > > > On 12/21/2012 9:35 AM, Tim wrote: >>> >>> My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating >>> like >>> popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse >>> grit sand >>> on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match >>> when you >>> patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying >>> drywall over >>> it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm >>> looking >>> into covering it. >>> >>> Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but >>> I also >>> thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster >>> adhere >>> to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or >>> should >>> I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't >>> take >>> forever, but I only want to do it once. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt@gmail.com > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 25 09:32:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E918340416 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:32:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0B74042D for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:31:59 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:18:21 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 12/25/2012 11:18:40, Serialize complete at 12/25/2012 11:18:40 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list. A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to share with you guys. I wrote it up as an Instructable. I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote for me! Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades! Here is the link... >http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING-SYSTEM/< Here is a tinyurl link to it... http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h Enjoy! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 25 09:46:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B906140438 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:46:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com (outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com [64.136.55.36]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 454E440405 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:46:08 -0700 (MST) s=alpha; t=1356453854; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=From:Date:To:Subject:Message-Id:Content-Type; b=AjpkwUiTHZ3UpXhRbqVrwTCibOw9H2cqucsTMfksKjcDwjZymIJqHzY3OIOneRvXw 5MjDwh35alb2iOh7nPgUaTewjWp6ik9kz0FwH/CpPk0ftPiv/AkgHbnuniBYsoU+Ei AqoClATYBMplh1Cjr2nlKKID1iUqDFc1Xq+bttqk= Received: from outbound-bu1.vgs.untd.com (webmail05.vgs.untd.com [10.181.12.145]) by smtpout02.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJPVX8NAMCM4A2 for (sender ); Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.42.238.6] by webmail05.vgs.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:42:42 GMT From: "Matt" Full-Name: "Matt" Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:42:42 GMT To: eric@megageek.com, shop-talk@autox.team.net 09e1a1cd1d95350941b039a5c9a1391d50ddb51401d534c414f4f4b9 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Looks great Inch! Merry Christmas.Did you ever come up with something for your firewood vending need? MB ---------- Original Message ---------- From: eric@megageek.com To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:18:21 -0500 Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list. A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to share with you guys. I wrote it up as an Instructable. I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote for me! Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades! Here is the link... >http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING- SYSTEM/< Here is a tinyurl link to it... http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h Enjoy! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre@juno.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 25 10:02:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5042A40415 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 10:02:03 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f176.google.com (mail-ie0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C13440405 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 10:01:57 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 13so9759360iea.35 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:00:04 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=i3qmT7Lu05lHMLayJLpZfd0/9by17zaJ28/NstSrWhU=; b=tLib//YHvCiP1lSXOpMHd9p6W4BXAXOd+da6+AybVx2z6xhhLo+83fc82xsgSo8DTb ubYzPt1KqsL04cwcp7qC8DsKI7QVPVxUeg9X9VS6eJW03+jFZrC+A/6r+G+GOdWE+YpL qQD1sezU6JjaiHcJW0KeaQdnnVNaCvq/wjQ+9k8U8Pz8XsQmVCeBxzvikYZy8ebdPWRJ NBLkdCmnXuDD3NhXYMG2x5FJHXHUxpqHt6/GN0ihtUruXfVY0rP4NWZo9h/LDQtoQCcT nH6q6LE1XboVVDHpQYs62vM16qFr9QS2mTweANfyo9OymGePnenmwZoQ9XKGTJXmGRqn P8tQ== Received: by 10.50.89.163 with SMTP id bp3mr17679771igb.89.1356454804637; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.44.116 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:00:04 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 12:00:04 -0500 From: Paul Parkanzky To: "eric@megageek.com" Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Very nice. My father in law used to sell a lot of firewood and we built racks out of recycled hardwood packing material that the construction company would get with steel deliveries. We made them hold a half cord and would put roofs on them to protect the wood from the elements a bit. At first, we used some canvas that we were repurposing, but that didn't hold up for more than a couple of seasons so we switched to corrugated steel roofing (also reclaimed). At the height of things he probably had 30-40 half-cord racks. You're right, it makes handling wood much easier. We'd put an empty rack at the out-feed of the splitter, fill it up and use the uniloader or tractor to move it to a clearing out in the woods. When the wood was seasoned, we could move it into isles in a clearing at the front of the property so that customers could drive their truck down the isle, pick a rack and load up. He doesn't sell much wood at all anymore and now he just cuts/splits six or eight cord a season to keep up with heating the house, shop and his daughter's house on the property. We still split right onto the racks, and when he's ready to use it he can move it right to the Woodmaster. I can't imagine just stacking split firewood out in the woods somewhere and having to haul it in to use it a little at a time. -Paul On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 11:18 AM, wrote: > Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list. > > A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to > share with you guys. I wrote it up as an Instructable. > > I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote > for me! Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades! > > Here is the link... > > > > http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING-SYSTEM/ > < > > Here is a tinyurl link to it... > > http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h > > Enjoy! > > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 25 11:41:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBAE4042D for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:41:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6297400A5 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:41:08 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@autox.team.net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 13:27:30 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 12/25/2012 13:26:56, Serialize complete at 12/25/2012 13:26:56 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks. I haven't come up with the system yet, but I'm still working on it! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "Matt" 12/25/2012 11:33 To eric@megageek.com, shop-talk@autox.team.net cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Looks great Inch! Merry Christmas. Did you ever come up with something for your firewood vending need? MB ---------- Original Message ---------- From: eric@megageek.com To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:18:21 -0500 Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list. A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to share with you guys. I wrote it up as an Instructable. I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote for me! Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades! Here is the link... >http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING-SYSTEM/< Here is a tinyurl link to it... http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h Enjoy! _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 25 13:23:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0B140443 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 13:23:13 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.212]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D84640432 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 13:23:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id fwLy1k0010QkzPwAEwMAhM; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 20:21:10 +0000 Received: from SusieandMarkPC ([76.21.64.167]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id fwM91k00D3cWj0U8NwM9kA; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 20:21:10 +0000 From: "Mark Miller" To: Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 12:21:10 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3i3WCTuwPHKn3ZTCi2bi+Pzw6yZg== s=q20121106; t=1356466870; bh=DZQKMJN5AbiKtxQPWFY5MQP5vg4LrDo7W34awVCV5ew=; h=Received:Received:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=n1/gE0hStpqfC4IMuX52EEtY5eq2lq/8TQ/F/AESykqTCQtMcy2jJgJo4zDrfrqvY OpbgXSKZ/MSe1OEIbxTO0k0rFb7mrbKC38r0sjy3FwQNLt9ynrouTmNi2vS2nad/ou k3WwM+2cn9fEGMUDc+t2DiEFJMq+UF5OUbr6p4mpGynG2VXuwl4D2CabKVsL9VH5gh xFAkQOiaTr46P0+SCzq6fiI3wtgbMwITmISElHU9FQJV6uWadTgXP/+8rI8VKiqEOX 3qTx5e4fLB2aCQbbLiOwbcX78c2+c2t9ATyYMktmmbA7QWAaFhWmPDjuI0FNrSqOSb eHBLftNroUyCA== Subject: [Shop-talk] Redneck wood rack Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I think if you want to guarantee a win you should post a picture of you driving the tractor with the pallet of wood into the living room through the full sized garage door. <<< -Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list. A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to share with you guys. I wrote it up as an Instructable. I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote for me! Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades! Here is the link... >http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HAND >LING-SYSTEM/< Here is a tinyurl link to it... http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h Enjoy! _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 25 15:34:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA77B40521 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 15:34:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169DF40435 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 15:32:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.166]) by out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 25 Dec 2012 22:30:40 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-149-114.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.149.114]) by relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 07ADA23AFA; Tue, 25 Dec 2012 22:30:38 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 14:30:51 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: eric@megageek.com References: Cc: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net That's a great idea, but if I had access to that many pallets, I would probably burn them. I just use the tractor bucket. On 12/25/2012 8:18 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to > share with you guys. I wrote it up as an Instructable. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 28 19:07:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5490B425A2 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:07:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f178.google.com (mail-gh0-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F1E4064D for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:07:23 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f178.google.com with SMTP id g24so1177297ghb.37 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:05:13 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:mime-version:from:to:subject:importance:date :content-type; bh=InHxB2L8BhqT7OcTno2tTPfhKlHWFXWlkb8MuBWCsY8=; b=XH4/eHGuW/x7oCAKI1DIg9iDQFkBYgrTku9FPv30xxt+lBqkVVvruuBCIrpWAwz4TD Ybk3dVCv0NYh/6au8ExmpDVIDrUWHSMCfg48aXf7nsWi1FL3Ccxd1KqFfFkm6S8qZ3l8 /97AiphnFdcfyBG1nDkWwW8+4J31G6MmjvEG6XTB2s9FnSsFH6nDi5f7UqWMTWOvrcmi KlcK7is8HTy2hcydjEQ23PJzk9OqaB9C14iMckEaNdAR68n/HpvHO3E59vbp+vV7Uclo npTW5F2oMXtnVDEaqKjRpTIS6SUWVxArvQTHY6nQehP1DsIJNYNfRGYVDKZmpqVOgsK4 Z9PQ== y20mr9314689ana.75.1356746713459; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from LatitudeE6400 (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x9sm32160174yhl.17.2012.12.28.18.05.12 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:05:12 -0800 (PST) From: To: "=?utf-8?Q?Shop-talk@autox.team.net?=" Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 02:05:09 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?This_is_why_I_don=27t_work_in_IT=2C_update?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net After all that angst, I thought I should post an update. Peter (thanks Peter) sent me a Vista ISO file. I burned it to a DVD and tried to install. it wonbt install. Says therebs a network problem. I thought it might be Wi-Fi related, so I plugged it directly into the router. No connection. I plugged the other laptop into the router, it connected fine (via cable). I took the HD out of that laptop (an HP, FWIW), and put in my my SSD. Installed Vista from the ISO on that drive just fine. So the Dell has an issue with its Ethernet connection. I seem to remember that from a while ago. I never use the Ethernet connection on the Dell, so I never pursued it. So...the Dell either has a hardware problem with the Ethernet port, or a driver problem. It seems to have video driver problems, so I go to the Dell site to download all the necessary drivers for Win8. There are no Win8 drivers listed for this Dell. Okay...so Ibll download all the new drivers available and see if some of them fix my issues. It insists it has to recognize my existing configuration before it can do that, and it canbt do that, since it has Win8 on it and Win8 is not supported for the E6400. It would appear Ibm not getting any Dell drivers until I go back to Vista which I canbt do until I have working Ethernet, which I canbt do until I get the drivers (or fix the hardware issue if itbs that). So...Ibm going to put this down for a day or two and go skiing. When I get back Ibll either bash it to pieces with a hammer or try again. I have no idea how to tell if the Ethernet issue is hardware or software related, but at least I know the ISO disc works and could install Vista on the new disc. I canbt install Vista on the SSD in the other laptop, then remove the SSD and put it in the Dell for some reason, so Ibm at an impasse. So Ibm stuck back hating Dell, but perhaps that will change if I ever get this thing working. Lenovo forever!!! _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Dec 28 19:59:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCBB425A9 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:59:13 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-la0-f52.google.com (mail-la0-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E51D42491 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:59:04 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-la0-f52.google.com with SMTP id fq12so1649327lab.39 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:56:54 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=eekBkCmDnbLT95MP1pHsvKqgWDgeXNpowUA5a1qxa8s=; b=qfUV+YL7iKfAlVfk/S/sRZZv2/Skxd9hEmpz2QCMCbhtaaXwEKvaBQL5/hsttOqHV7 h+m5bAJejr3D9rKE2y/DccXb7GIV39xvAshBUcXGuk188yvPPnxMdSOYymOlyw1spk+1 VDxYLOeXD2mLejP+dixhyu+tt9Noj+JD9AsDRBQsPpQBb3i9/3A2X5JzDgawDUcN7Vgg Zsik7d3ohuJsax/+dSvE/M8G2+gaWSCqapdgWRHN/ZHxtVEq46Jl+0YlRt8UZcyl+TQY a0xWHO12p5mfLo4CrYOn4jIFXXdv2QXVoXiiZIyH8sG2yN2DDpGZS0CAIfinGVOy2HM4 BPAQ== Received: by 10.112.44.161 with SMTP id f1mr13822596lbm.29.1356749814243; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.110.98 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:56:54 -0800 (PST) References: <50de4fd8.89aeec0a.6aab.ffffd501@mx.google.com> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:56:54 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: scott.hall.personal@gmail.com Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, update Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:05 PM, wrote: > I have no idea how to tell if the Ethernet issue is hardware or software related Try an Ubuntu Live disc... http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop http://www.ubuntu.com/download/help/try-ubuntu-before-you-install Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 30 16:59:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C578A40515 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:59:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta21.charter.net (mta21.charter.net [216.33.127.81]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDF24044E for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:59:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta21.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20121230235651.KJYH10448.mta21.charter.net@imp10> for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:56:51 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id hzwr1k0081Dq0wp05zwrRK; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:56:51 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=9FVDmUcUHj0A:10 a=GdPuj4-s0QlsTthTwxQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=LXR7HzlY9AbUH5lTyZsA:9 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:56:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:56:51 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and TV when watching a football game. Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event? Thanks tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 30 17:24:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E1D40530 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:24:18 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C360140513 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:24:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from mark.bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56508A137B for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:23:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:23:07 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120315 Firefox/11.0 SeaMonkey/2.8 To: Shop Talk References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tim wrote: > As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and > TV when watching a football game. > > Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event? > > Probably not easy. One could pipe the audio from the radio into a computer that was running a X second delay program if such exists. I remember years ago when the Utah Jazz were playing in the NBA finals against the Bulls. It was funny to have the radio I was listening to being about a second ahead of what was on the screen. You'd know if the basket was made before the guy took the shot! mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 30 17:26:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E96427A6 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:26:55 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE2940518 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:26:50 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:14:15 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 12/30/2012 19:13:04, Serialize complete at 12/30/2012 19:13:04 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Not to be a wise guy, but can't you TIVO the game and just pause it for the delayed time? Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Tim Sent by: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net 12/30/2012 18:45 To Shop Talk cc Subject [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and TV when watching a football game. Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event? Thanks tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric@megageek.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 30 17:33:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F85427B5 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:33:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f179.google.com (mail-ie0-f179.google.com [209.85.223.179]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0426140525 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:33:41 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ie0-f179.google.com with SMTP id k14so14733884iea.10 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:31:22 -0800 (PST) s=20120113; h=x-received:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from :subject:date:to; bh=3VMDcfW5LMlJlVF9D4G/ztX8WusNcYoWZI7CtvuS4gk=; b=d3wyjIUvOcGLFVBLeLEVLnvCbgEidXCX8l02dv6NX3NUb6mvbz/+DU+Ts1l1P+Sa+Q X5OJ45KLVJKulebvYbUu1i/Vo8jrMjTu6mrQj9J5r32Ien2LGHFBSZC3ecT52kw0uV6E cGYp3ZjSQzZY2Q7oRLqgmoc0nEqGRz+M+HWufEqgpkGWEsBggRcdNbtygkMziqBsJPel NQxXdCiWK42rOX5KMJZbw6MS8V1FqVD9BhsK/AK3Fxz/wn/taDnoZ8Q9+RMoCYGWyKbv rJKwdVlSXOjCk0RIk1N14r7dEF5Q1OTYyXQbF3vKfseeCWQl/mzVQ9RJBQldCny2GFgR bvwg== a5mr34803852igl.59.1356913882679; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:31:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.8.36.218] ([166.137.98.149]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xn10sm36328775igb.4.2012.12.30.16.31.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:31:21 -0800 (PST) References: From: David Scheidt Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:31:18 -0600 To: "eric@megageek.com" Cc: "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:14 PM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > Not to be a wise guy, but can't you TIVO the game and just pause it for > the delayed time? That's probably easiest. You want get it exactly right but you can get close > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > > > > > Tim > Sent by: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > 12/30/2012 18:45 > > To > Shop Talk > cc > > Subject > [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? > > > > > > > As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and > TV when watching a football game. > > Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event? > > Thanks > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric@megageek.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 30 21:49:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A246427A8 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:49:55 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from ibis.arvixe.com (ibis.arvixe.com [50.97.138.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4FA640520 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:49:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from c-98-212-107-177.hsd1.il.comcast.net ([98.212.107.177]:49378 helo=[192.168.1.100]) by ibis.arvixe.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1TpXHV-0001eP-Al for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:47:21 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:47:25 -0600 From: Matt Wehland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net> with any abuse report paulyd@pennyantepub.com Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Ok a quick search turned this up- http://www.fountainware.com/Products/AudioDelay/index.htm or http://www.daansystems.com/radiodelay/ No Idea if they work. ----------------------- When I worked with MLB.com this was a real problem. Sometimes we would get audio not in sync from the broadcast truck. There solutions ranged from ten's of thousands of dollars (could only delay audio, not video) to a custom million + dollar A/V router system that had audio/video delays built in for just this problem (and many others) You basically need a program/hardware that will delay the audio (normally ahead of video) or delay the video (not often the issue) and then manually sync them up and hope the delay doesn't change for the duration of the event. Heck just try having 2 TV's on cable, one HD one SD, there is normally a significant delay between the 2 boxes on the order of a second or more on the local cable system. Makes it funny listening to the neighbors scream for a play a second or more apart. Even worse if the 2 TV's are in the same room/house. Useless knowledge Alert- In the old analog video days it was standard practice to use long runs of cable (100's of feet) to time the delay of video signals through different pieces of equipment. Also had to be sure to keep the RGB signal cables the same length or you ran into color shifts. Sorry I can't be of more help. On 12/30/2012 5:56 PM, Tim wrote: > As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and > TV when watching a football game. > > Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event? > > Thanks > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mjw@littlegrassy.com > > -- Matt Wehland (815) 549-1502 mjw@littlegrassy.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 30 23:11:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8327427B7 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:11:14 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ee0-f46.google.com (mail-ee0-f46.google.com [74.125.83.46]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC8A42529 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:10:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ee0-f46.google.com with SMTP id e53so5928509eek.5 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:07:51 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ePs3/XgwKZfQJIJ9NYCGrVj8Cej6T3NzrLqQBw5UUaY=; b=JL6u5VA5u99uIZMtuEH3iGQyzl3dnUQmEV3R0f4jsO2/Vm/7u9ixNpgo5ISgiUWPbp 5KR6FVqTtCqCMTgoh5vd8gfVVspfD9Xj80pl2/OSLZnfv7Z+ALblhqMg0Pon6gwNdcAA 84T5jp5QZPetV+JpwqRfGfWwkk3A46qo1vQtfSc72Ww6cBtWWgjb3lEmvGqi4Yz/ji5R mOrakhH1pXLT7LmlIqXAZIbfI1TDk0UcI7zgTsLt+bLxJkBEO3yxiC6yidT3bjtPSPCE kuVwVkm4y4JPxdaukD8aQ2yDd3amGrOLbBZCE1JIuQMxuoGkvh2WI8hW/kevnVMo6G5l tkcQ== Received: by 10.14.0.71 with SMTP id 47mr107114682eea.19.1356934071195; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.155.195 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:07:50 -0800 (PST) References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net> <50E118DD.40404@littlegrassy.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 00:07:50 -0600 From: David Scheidt To: Matt Wehland Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Matt Wehland wrote: > Ok a quick search turned this up- > http://www.fountainware.com/Products/AudioDelay/index.htm > or > http://www.daansystems.com/radiodelay/ > No Idea if they work. > > ----------------------- > > When I worked with MLB.com this was a real problem. > Sometimes we would get audio not in sync from the broadcast truck. > There solutions ranged from ten's of thousands of dollars (could only delay > audio, not video) to a custom million + dollar A/V router system that had > audio/video delays built in for just this problem (and many others) > > You basically need a program/hardware that will delay the audio (normally > ahead of video) or delay the video (not often the issue) and then manually > sync them up and hope the delay doesn't change for the duration of the > event. > > Heck just try having 2 TV's on cable, one HD one SD, there is normally a > significant delay between the 2 boxes on the order of a second or more on > the local cable system. When I lived in northern Indiana, most of the sports bars had both cable and satellite service, because one considered Chicago the local market, the other detroit, which changed which games were available. So it was not unusual when they were showing the same thing on all of them to have half tuned to one source, the other half to the other source. One would be two to five seconds ahead of the other. You could tell when important plays were made, just by watching the heads move to the delayed screens. Somewhat surprisingly, the delays weren't constant, they'd change over the course of a football game. A lot of the delay is inherent in digital television. Not only are there encoding and delays (which make it lag behind the non digital version, were the non-digital version actually broadcast. it's not, so it's really the digital signal, decoded, converted, and retransmitted, so it's often behind on cable), there's an error recovery buffer (two sorts, one built into the format, the other into the hardware.) and the speed of the hardware. There's also often a satellite hop (or two, rarely three), good for a third of a second or more each. Radio is just audio, even if it gets turned into digital signals, the conversion overhead is a lot lower. (I know at least some of the network feeds are now over the internet, essentially guaranteeing they're not over a satellite link, too.) > Makes it funny listening to the neighbors scream for a play a second or more > apart. > Even worse if the 2 TV's are in the same room/house. > > Useless knowledge Alert- > In the old analog video days it was standard practice to use long runs of > cable (100's of feet) to time the delay of video signals through different > pieces of equipment. Some of the first computer memory used audio pulses sent through mercury tubes. you knew how long it took for sound to travel the tube, so you knew when you'd have to listen for it. Required constant refreshing, and wasn't random access, but it worked, and the technology already existed. It's a variation of the technique to remove the signals from fixed objects from early radar screens. Compare two successive scans, anthing with the same delay isn't moving, and can be ignored. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 30 23:32:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E90E427BD for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:32:22 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm11-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm11-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.124]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB575425BB for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:32:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.102] by nm11.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2012 06:29:54 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.172] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2012 06:29:54 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2012 06:29:54 -0000 s=s1024; t=1356935394; bh=m8nhMmTwIIl39WhGq/eSWsuv/1g9OhNDgwscyyGmHyU=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:X-MimeOLE; b=n3RGDfzx7H8jCuBaTpy/fV2dFBrrguQelalpQhZGOitKrNNzyuGJSgfs4x2Psg2RcXn5KeDg6VjqGhRYbHHnf8LolwgGlVsU+N2ea1klyXG6YjxqRo9lA3iOSMoqhx8wIDhb8MTTXYwU6wYJzJAGHZ2z6V5Q/yWTnNbDVeSMvt4= .AgMM6XrwlmR8ZK9UhfgkziKsrPFlglJXESk_sJcCb1UvdHRQ0tWclaVzprK XCzECjcsOE8Y.WBk.goDOj667ibk1RmOIxvHXL8H938Z6PFLaEloEeeM5d82 yqxG3WuXdiUL_wY5KqFvtMvV.1BdJ8G2wkAHEHoBdJDCj_SEb0tzRfpqR7AP 6DV3lfbdUKge2_ivE5xx21csuCF.gAe46VwnJjTMYn3eJ8Et.DC6PephYlCI ScXspu0LzsD3P98WaXlOSc0vNJ.GVPd.HB4h3bepM_8oJmFF3h7rz6huGQLR XyuKueargIlALHjoP6j88v4aaTqO0ru6EZyscQ3v_el_w.G3fYRFCyQPmfqK TlkKzCa8kF66qWc3c.EqgjfceE6aNaU3oNgLyUkKefXAI886j_k8XBFzbXxK WSiivbZ7i1arhQe_IjZQo9pygf7AId2hQCQHMl2SKYZU6lPi84AmOQTnixv1 qKC0IMi1bstM.8C0q Received: from EntCentPC (jibjib@71.212.11.27 with login) by smtp106.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2012 22:29:54 -0800 PST From: "Jack Brooks" To: "'Shop Talk'" References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:30:07 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3m6WUBk34U1dQjShGM5JG5i29XaAANscKg Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Just watch the video and listen to the non-video presentations. It's a lot more exciting that way. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tim Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 3:57 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and TV when watching a football game. Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event? Thanks tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 31 08:21:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C010C4051A for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:21:07 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta41.charter.net (mta41.charter.net [216.33.127.83]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782EC4042D for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:20:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20121231151831.SAAD10143.mta41.charter.net@imp11> for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:18:31 -0500 Received: from wt04 ([209.225.8.44]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id iFJX1k00d0x0GZM05FJX3W; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:18:31 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=rHGWRSMi0C4A:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=pt7W5C0g45EA:10 a=iEZWaKCLAAAA:8 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=BniMYzXy6smBoGxg4TIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=J0aUVQLP0FIA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=fN2J7l6Gh3oA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:18:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:18:31 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I had thought about this method with my dvr but the radio is always ahead of the tv so pausing the tv part with only make the delay longer. On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:14 PM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > Not to be a wise guy, but can't you TIVO the game and just pause it > for the delayed time? > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a > rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your > territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson > > > > Tim Sent by: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > 12/30/2012 18:45 > > To > Shop Talk > cc > > Subject > [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync? > > > > > > > As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and > TV when watching a football game. > > Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting > event? > > Thanks > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric@megageek.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive