From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Sep 1 12:48:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B4142741 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2013 12:48:59 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F69B40C02 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2013 12:48:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Kug11m0051ZMdJ4A2uon6i; Sun, 01 Sep 2013 18:48:47 +0000 Received: from SusieandMarkPC ([76.21.64.167]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Kuol1m00B3cWj0U8cuombD; Sun, 01 Sep 2013 18:48:46 +0000 From: "Mark Miller" To: Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 11:48:47 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac6nQ+RSJxULfXO3Rn+TCFy11A9RmA== s=q20121106; t=1378061327; bh=UhfrSHlBJ6W6RATb984l9U0Pkc5k1r2Ci41kpVxoa0A=; h=Received:Received:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ZIs6lz70Wk3+lFYJyl4IiAcArulTpJ2aafoMsdJmyttfWORQQkKO03vwcgVWwrVPd Qaq6ifiVmK2ZbtaWj3f6M2+harCFoWw2aSQuqQvU6sPyw7rJsmWvVoS+yhPnIuMTKf OET+qhGV+e9Ww3KYS3O4HTqLpTDSrIYTR4LPRjzZU4kmR+vEo5usWGJozb7Aov91B7 HQuBO4FxHX2wvU7KgOzq3+OitcNd/3z+mKk4OBrUU1oBswAeTVDzSm4Qp8xRfNCJn7 RZ5CfByzzS3l/+CP0PpmkYzJ68ua366bgq+mmN+JeBR9vs1zgnSSpUb83U7/FEi3Jq XPHRhMBw7g8sA== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] .25mm too big Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net A few options you could try: Since the bolt is not the hard to get item perhaps reassemble the original one and mash the threads a bit after the nut is on as a lock. Or: bend the nut to create the locking effect you need. Or: run a tap through the holes the bolt will go through followed by a sacrificial bolt that you will strip the hole out with to open it up a bit. Or: get way longer bolts and bend then to act as a lock. Good luck, and let us know what you end up doing to solve the problem. Mark Miller Also a happy Datsun roadster owner, happier that my nuts are secure! Tim said: <<< I bought longer bolts for the linkage on my webers so I could use two regurlar nuts locked together instead of nylocks. They are M5-.8 and are approx one quarter of one mm too big to fit through the linkage pivots. The bolts that came with the kit are also M5-.8. M4s have too much slop and SAE bolts were too big as well. I ran the new bolts through a die cutter but not much (enought) was cut off (as expected). I really don't want to try to drill out the linkage pivot and take a chance of generating heat and screwing up the rubber bushing. Thoughts please on what I can do to narrow down the bolts. Maybe a small round file to try to open up the hole?? Thanks tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 6 16:24:49 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5322D40549 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:24:49 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm15-vm10.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm15-vm10.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.115.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746114053D for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:24:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.196.81.161] by nm15.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Sep 2013 22:24:10 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.243] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Sep 2013 22:24:10 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp114.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Sep 2013 22:24:10 -0000 s=s1024; t=1378506250; bh=EEyAINrdhIkH+VZUIT1GFWQC6Gr34W1Qlod12i9al5M=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=GFVEas8Ap7POYcGnZGCBHUbHiU0NJXzG8tWbiSctcB5sOl2TTZ6NXFjlyJKIqXxla2/nyNJkmfYWHy8+OB3VAtR+z5DnmiVZWYGiZRPVgDR2+WhuwIz04q8DSyt/miK4kOyA7Tw76ybiMEsOsVPdG1V7a+yTVloPqwS5P5fpa0Q= 59tD1rXI76Wcc0FtIUhc762Nv5u0x3Yatvm6miPbVX2jNGgWvU8GV4yC5lbh iqwKxIFCLm4L.gJN7PMhc2OowemDsV8r0B._wLi11CEyO8fFzbBrSU6VUG3l odhbDxmSNg8eRX.J1iPUn8ow0TkkSmSNf7ud.1iXM1_g4ruxhRTpdYt.3.D3 k_EE7A6uZiSKCE2A8J7YMXU8FJkrGO71oo0awhpDS7shP0798GpZFD7EgKz7 MKsV0A3tDTv_97UEO8okn5naZmcklGRR5OEhq9G21teHcEVRX8kOAhHBk2si B0wok4iFHo7vmwi66Af9Pk6UG6yViEVhBvZFzRCWs6VB_oM7beuYGF56R_je Ls_rre9ZJ01Eu1hqHS4ryLwdXfoU0evvY9pyh6SnH.5.CMlqq6H7n3K6bWT2 I2FER6VprD6vOmeAS8k4kht.efRZrFByRp4MxoqNDiCvohQIBiouiJ9DGqUD c8o8KulAF8JeI63_Hd__UpKIB.KcUfYu2q9seTCJsuNDCg88jQi7K36eydK2 AcKulc3VwHkVi9Hk8GeNDlRRDZu6Z2tKsadlYq5XE5up.Jz_v8yu9zk5g3hh zPxvdp0_O smtp114.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Sep 2013 22:24:10 +0000 UTC From: "John Niolon" To: "shop-talk" Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 17:24:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net maybe what you call it... I need to 'dimple' a piece of metal just like a rim is dimpled where it fits over the wheel studs... for the same reason... I'm making this (see links) and can't figure how to deform the metal into the right shape... hyd press with a rounded rod ?? I've got a hyd press (bench top 20 ton) I use for bending metal... it will be 1/16 or 1/8" plate and I need to do this pretty accurately so it will fit the rim... I'm trying to copy a wheel lock gizmo I saw on the net... http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/hub_closeup1.jpg http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/back.jpg suggestions... Many people are alive only because it's illegal to shoot them. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 6 16:46:16 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F454054A for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:46:16 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from itonami.pair.com (itonami.pair.com [209.68.2.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 379AC40539 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:46:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 15768 invoked by uid 3198); 6 Sep 2013 22:46:05 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Sep 2013 22:46:05 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 18:46:05 -0400 (EDT) From: David Hillman To: John Niolon References: <00DD56FCFC3D49D482F0CC2AED9791A5@john5043a2d406> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (BSF 1266 2009-07-14) Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You need, surprisingly enough, a dimple die. On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, John Niolon wrote: > maybe what you call it... I need to 'dimple' a piece of metal just like a rim > is dimpled where it fits over the wheel studs... for the same reason... I'm > making this (see links) and can't figure how to deform the metal into the > right shape... hyd press with a rounded rod ?? I've got a hyd press (bench > top 20 ton) I use for bending metal... > > it will be 1/16 or 1/8" plate and I need to do this pretty accurately so it > will fit the rim... I'm trying to copy a wheel lock gizmo I saw on the net... > > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/hub_closeup1.jpg > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/back.jpg > > > suggestions... > > > Many people are alive only because it's illegal to shoot them. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/hillman@planet-torque.com > > -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 7 04:32:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8864054E for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 04:32:14 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5AFB40435 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 04:32:02 -0600 (MDT) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=9a6kdTV8ZoMA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=CG8JQYMlpZMA:10 a=kQeGtjTTkJIRwY70pnwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55003] helo=rypc) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 42/F8-02184-0A00B225; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 10:32:01 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'John Niolon'" , "'shop-talk'" Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 03:32:00 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac6rT+3BGAzNJhsGSQOUcz4EzMKY6wAYt3ww Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > maybe what you call it... I need to 'dimple' a piece of > metal just like a rim > is dimpled where it fits over the wheel studs... for the same > reason... I'm > making this (see links) and can't figure how to deform the > metal into the > right shape... hyd press with a rounded rod ?? For accuracy, I'm thinking you'll want a die that fits all 5 stud holes plus a raised center section to engage the center hole; plus a pin that will fit a stud hole in the die and an un-punched hole in your "wheel", and a punch that will slide into each stud hole in the die. So initially, the die will be located to the wheel by the center hole and one lug hole; and the punch will be located to the die through the lug hole that it is punching. Once you've punched the first hole, put a bolt & lug nut through that hole to keep the die in place against the "wheel" while you punch the other 4 holes. To make the die, you could lay out the center circle and the bolt circle, then the 5 lug locations. Center punch, drill & ream the lug holes, then counter-sink them at the appropriate angle, extra deep to account for the material you're going to take off next. Also drill & ream a center hole to a convenient size, so you can mount it in the lathe and face off enough material to create a raised section to engage the center hole in the "wheel". If you don't have a lathe that big, you might be able to cobble up some sort of hole saw to outline the raised section, then mill, grind or file the other metal away. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 7 05:38:47 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657654054D for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 05:38:47 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa09-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.233]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5462540435 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 05:38:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.50.11] ([12.162.141.2]) by p3plsmtpa09-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id NBeb1m00603JK1Y01BebD1; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 04:38:36 -0700 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2013 06:38:20 -0500 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <00DD56FCFC3D49D482F0CC2AED9791A5@john5043a2d406> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Rather than dimpling, how about building up the area around each stud and just cut a countersinked area at each stud into the thicker metal? You might want to also relieve the back of the area on the bottom of each stud hole just a bit to not have binding. Seems easier, but you won't have to buy new tools,,,,a plus and a minus!\ Peace, Pat Thusly spake John Niolon > maybe what you call it... I need to 'dimple' a piece of metal just like a rim > is dimpled where it fits over the wheel studs... for the same reason... I'm > making this (see links) and can't figure how to deform the metal into the > right shape... hyd press with a rounded rod ?? I've got a hyd press (bench > top 20 ton) I use for bending metal... > > it will be 1/16 or 1/8" plate and I need to do this pretty accurately so it > will fit the rim... I'm trying to copy a wheel lock gizmo I saw on the net... > > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/hub_closeup1.jpg > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/back.jpg > > > suggestions... > > > Many people are alive only because it's illegal to shoot them. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com > > > Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 7 06:40:02 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A9E4054E for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 06:40:01 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail932c35.carrierzone.com (mail932c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.122]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D365940511 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 06:39:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail932c35.carrierzone.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail932c35.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r87CdmZ8030859 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Sep 2013 12:39:48 GMT Received: (from webmail@localhost) by mail932c35.carrierzone.com (8.13.6/8.12.2/Submit) id r87CdmAu030857; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 12:39:48 GMT Received: from h180.191.45.173.cable.haefele.htva.net (h180.191.45.173.cable.haefele.htva.net [173.45.191.180]) by webmail2.centurytel.net (Webmail 4.0 V.V.I.) with HTTP for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:39:48 -0400 From: ejrussell@mebtel.net To: "shop-talk" , "John Niolon" Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:39:48 -0400 User-Agent: Webmail 4.0 a=vFMCQZgPscsA:10 a=9a6kdTV8ZoMA:10 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=GPr01A5e9VcA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=1Z9RwgkPtFFUAHbMojEdQQ==:17 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=3mGoOgd3ccMn7xNMxooA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=ak8hT95dqUEA:10 a=VOoAlmqpkicA:10 a=WkljmVdYkabdwxfqvArNOQ==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Quoting John Niolon : > I need to 'dimple' a piece of metal it will be 1/16 or 1/8" plate As mentioned you might be needing a dimpling die. But I'm not sure whether they'd work on 1/8" steel. I've used them on sheet metal (18 ga) and it seems like 1/16" would be taxing their limit. Eric Russell Mebane, NC _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 7 06:40:46 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323AA40518 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 06:40:46 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nexicom.net (barracuda1.nexicom.net [216.168.96.4]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BF240511 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 06:40:41 -0600 (MDT) x-ip-name=76.75.117.176; Received: from CAD (unverified [76.75.117.176]) by nexicom.net (SurgeMail 6.4a) with ESMTP id 440525626-1712458 for multiple; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:40:40 -0400 From: "Doug Armstrong" To: "'John Niolon'" , "'Shop Talk List'" References: <00DD56FCFC3D49D482F0CC2AED9791A5@john5043a2d406> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 08:40:39 -0400 Thread-Index: Ac6rT/HuIdCwoRntSfO670X4MEKE8QAdvkCQ Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You didn't say how big the holes will be. Here is an example of a 1/2" hole flare. They are often used to add lightness and strength to roll cage gussets. https://www.irvansmith.com/scart/hole-flare-p-394.html Doug Armstrong -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Niolon Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 6:24 PM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? maybe what you call it... I need to 'dimple' a piece of metal just like a rim is dimpled where it fits over the wheel studs... for the same reason... I'm making this (see links) and can't figure how to deform the metal into the right shape... hyd press with a rounded rod ?? I've got a hyd press (bench top 20 ton) I use for bending metal... it will be 1/16 or 1/8" plate and I need to do this pretty accurately so it will fit the rim... I'm trying to copy a wheel lock gizmo I saw on the net... http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/hub_closeup1.jpg http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/back.jpg suggestions... Many people are alive only because it's illegal to shoot them. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darmstrong@nexicom.net ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6644 - Release Date: 09/06/13 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 7 07:05:38 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC2340552 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 07:05:38 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm22-vm9.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm22-vm9.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.115.152]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FEE40511 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 07:05:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.196.81.156] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Sep 2013 13:05:30 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.241] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Sep 2013 13:05:30 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Sep 2013 13:05:30 -0000 s=s1024; t=1378559130; bh=LGyQOBGGDtj4ARAFHdyUFAtZlWfGo3OGTX4dryGAEwc=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=RYJORFtBaJKez0xpm3LzcLFvdOt/AQbf9j4jkyWSwjZjP2gU3/23oyARD7D5u8aUDUyv5sieYs207cPIg67355cC2JV9FqO3fE5L91lz6GQT0vS8gchjWkdTjKiafQHBfS0Zzq81ph1vd7i63/z0GMJWU637u9wfESckDW+PUZw= _vsigKCFMQUCGb9lpJLAH7xqNgLN1hEYn0QlK8inxV2rr_qJq8K36zk0F99u .RQQX7XwhgvfODyW7DPiQXe9x_M9YbGj7gGJjMRWle.q0imaBjkGWYQfz_hZ CJBugXHoAG36S.SFmSO8gtzqQnEwf_k08pPrgPwCaXQovSxn4veSpy2MNYKj 7hdXpuCb0_K1jwckD1xOSQV707pTXgMa94HL6S5Vmp56bSOjwp_mP12nICtZ KVsY0uCsC_S7xg3hvn7JJnkchbdN9_xeli16MtCgm_lNrt.l0anM6Sfitd79 L5Sq7k2mDwplpt1ibhNxzlGsJDcA4QCuoDV1KISi2MzEkbEVHwpDRb.kebud oVGcJAKxhb5A5iUxz3WBOwPoF1mNHdHggIZcZnE2b_GqpcOUbAfCIF52SNiY l6rj7FgPykb.GdHov105HvpLy4pmbmpsECcES5X2Rv_Wcb_NDeTeyfpoae3U V2tfv3kI7HXeq9fzdj4djPynGwwekLkf8aQ0fyPEwPoKuvaS5eBz7p4Jr2G1 ZJEExvUb0kQNO9nwsD77DUmI3cTBSb4SqYTsAMoN6sRE3jrbcKsBFSh_Ou46 ybqWuWdCK5nl87sNGIkpRu8Xy92DKzT1d6X6nGKOLFqiTJkSM0CU0zY6Vc_6 QZRT6C0ooXCaUtIaIAZMBL2xc_ESVNIpchx7MURtM_GWRcpJb.Z8imjaaNcq EeprnSlGvlsWNmrCKJ5fFPXxR4erdTA5c5iSKuM3fttYBJAWXwlk.10EqOWx 0 smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 07 Sep 2013 06:05:30 -0700 PDT From: "John Niolon" To: "Doug Armstrong" , "shop-talk" References: <00DD56FCFC3D49D482F0CC2AED9791A5@john5043a2d406> <6842A019E52C43DBB5C97B3E45680CAA@CAD> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 08:04:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net thanks for the replies guys... I can see that I'm not set up for this type of work... tool and precision wise. The company does sell the piece I pictured as a 'mount' for the lock when not in use...but seem to be out of stock a lot. I think I'll just wait and buy that base and build the easy part... and Doug... thanks for the link to that cool racing fab site.. thanks John > You didn't say how big the holes will be. > > Here is an example of a 1/2" hole flare. They are often used to add > lightness and strength to roll cage gussets. > > https://www.irvansmith.com/scart/hole-flare-p-394.html > > Doug Armstrong > > > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Niolon > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 6:24 PM > To: shop-talk > Subject: [Shop-talk] dimpling metal ?? > > maybe what you call it... I need to 'dimple' a piece of metal just like a > rim > is dimpled where it fits over the wheel studs... for the same reason... > I'm > making this (see links) and can't figure how to deform the metal into the > right shape... hyd press with a rounded rod ?? I've got a hyd press > (bench > top 20 ton) I use for bending metal... > > it will be 1/16 or 1/8" plate and I need to do this pretty accurately so > it > will fit the rim... I'm trying to copy a wheel lock gizmo I saw on the > net... > > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/hub_closeup1.jpg > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/back.jpg > > > suggestions... > > > Many people are alive only because it's illegal to shoot them. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darmstrong@nexicom.net > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6644 - Release Date: 09/06/13 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 13 13:08:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A34F40539 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.75]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785A940437 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:58:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COL126-W3 ([65.55.34.73]) by col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 13 Sep 2013 11:58:39 -0700 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:58:39 -0500 FILETIME=[422A8340:01CEB0B3] Subject: [Shop-talk] Water Pressure Relief Valve Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The major appliances in the rental property we bought last year were all on their last legs, but we have been trying to stretch out replacing them as long as possible to keep it from becoming a money pit. The furnace and refrigerator were the first to go. Stove, dishwasher and air conditioner are all close behind. The water heater is from 2002 and, not knowing how well it was treated in the past, is probably also at the end of its life expectancy. The pressure release valve had a very slow drip when we took possession, so I replaced it. The new one still dripped and, thinking it was a defective replacement, I replaced that too. But the drip remained. It probably drips about a cup a day, but I have the valve running into a floor drain, so I have never been too worried about that. However, yesterday after both my wife and I took relatively consecutive showers, the valve opened up completely and shot water out. I shut off the water supply and the tank and reset the valve and all has been normal since. I hadnt notice the setting before the valve opened, but the water had been very hot and I suspect the renters had turned it up pretty high. Is the drip and one time opening up an indication of impending failure? I am not happy about spending the money right now, but it is certainly better to replace it ahead of a catastrophic failure. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 13 16:53:40 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E414290E for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:53:40 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025B642A1B for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 14:37:30 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YpJmMHLLS/hhi5HmfZXmQAqYrq7JMhPlJMMu1rCVqIHAzYuLJpeZKpPQTaJVEcVd; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [172.10.156.4] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1VKa78-0000O1-Pa; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:37:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:36:01 -0700 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 To: Jim Stone References: Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water Pressure Relief Valve Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim - It might be building up too much pressure. Check the water temperature of the hot water. It should be no more than 140. 120 is safer and recommended if you have kids. A meat thermometer should be close enough and covers the right temperature range. The two consecutive showers probably made the tank colder than normal. If it then heated fully without a hot faucet being opened, the pressure reached the point were the valve tripped like it should. If you have a water pressure gauge, you could connect it to the laundry sink or washing machine hot water valve. Check it after a shower or other big use of hot water then again after 30 minutes to see how much it went up. I've seen cases were people also put in a small expansion tank near the heater. Search "hot water expansion tank" for details. Brian On 9/13/2013 11:58 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > The major appliances in the rental property we bought last year were all on > their last legs, but we have been trying to stretch out replacing them as long > as possible to keep it from becoming a money pit. The furnace and > refrigerator were the first to go. Stove, dishwasher and air conditioner are > all close behind. The water heater is from 2002 and, not knowing how well it > was treated in the past, is probably also at the end of its life expectancy. > The pressure release valve had a very slow drip when we took possession, so I > replaced it. The new one still dripped and, thinking it was a defective > replacement, I replaced that too. But the drip remained. It probably drips > about a cup a day, but I have the valve running into a floor drain, so I have > never been too worried about that. However, yesterday after both my wife and > I took relatively consecutive showers, the valve opened up completely and shot > water out. I shut off the water supply and the tank and reset the valve and > all has been normal since. I hadnt notice the setting before the valve > opened, but the water had been very hot and I suspect the renters had turned > it up pretty high. > > Is the drip and one time opening up an indication of impending failure? I am > not happy about spending the money right now, but it is certainly better to > replace it ahead of a catastrophic failure. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 13 16:57:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150DB429B5 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:57:25 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-oa0-f52.google.com (mail-oa0-f52.google.com [209.85.219.52]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CA84271B for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 14:39:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id f4so1666008oah.11 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:39:43 -0700 (PDT) d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=RjRzdZ7fEex90HUO2Pt1IZHrXqmiETY04ESt3LInXK4=; b=FX8tIjhmB62Y0wFqGYszktsh+1YNulcBkqoieRg1+9CtQHrhi0HGyskp++/ZMNDvQt M7ogkLuXJv0NpabpUNIoe3+4weMnJVlVLuzBWXIkJWhILbG22oXRcGaY1R44A7SOFnws 7ZlYg4DW/NejuJ9U4BdW+oN3B1saptVslPDxokr2UHfn8N4zoi079HAnMkUIIAboHN25 PEnrHP19E7ERIbWo+yIM6TPZE0wkaCK+qmig8ml49utfK4SxfJKGWFlh5bIRsAmfZAiq gNagt68xIuBf19rvzB7vjYQK8YsB35ZeMl51FPOQQ+wUC8zvPEin1Y6cUjdWAvSOHJbj 77ng== p3mr13907984obm.29.1379104783170; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.96.71 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:39:43 -0700 (PDT) References: Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:39:43 -0400 From: Doug Braun To: Jim Stone , Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water Pressure Relief Valve Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Is there possibly a check valve somewhere on the inlet line? If so, if the heater is heating a bunch of cold water and nobody is using water, the water in the tank will expand and have no place to go except the check valve. Doug On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > The major appliances in the rental property we bought last year were all on > their last legs, but we have been trying to stretch out replacing them as > long > as possible to keep it from becoming a money pit. The furnace and > refrigerator were the first to go. Stove, dishwasher and air conditioner > are > all close behind. The water heater is from 2002 and, not knowing how well > it > was treated in the past, is probably also at the end of its life > expectancy. > The pressure release valve had a very slow drip when we took possession, > so I > replaced it. The new one still dripped and, thinking it was a defective > replacement, I replaced that too. But the drip remained. It probably > drips > about a cup a day, but I have the valve running into a floor drain, so I > have > never been too worried about that. However, yesterday after both my wife > and > I took relatively consecutive showers, the valve opened up completely and > shot > water out. I shut off the water supply and the tank and reset the valve > and > all has been normal since. I hadn t notice the setting before the valve > opened, but the water had been very hot and I suspect the renters had > turned > it up pretty high. > > Is the drip and one time opening up an indication of impending failure? I > am > not happy about spending the money right now, but it is certainly better to > replace it ahead of a catastrophic failure. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug@dougbraun.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 13 19:10:44 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01F84294C for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:10:44 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D87F40424 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:35:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.28]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id QkFl1m0010cQ2SLA4layrb; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:34:58 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Qlay1m00V2xZMJ48WlayhH; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:34:58 +0000 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:34:58 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: shop talk Cc: shop talk s=q20121106; t=1379108098; bh=/w2iS/9iTjLYvfTBbifqSJQ9qfhNXZewnvEs3ePHhv0=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=JQQwWzIniSyZglHFLyrW7RCB1JB+cpsYITEszphU4RaKka5tbToF5ptWvviHQ71mS h99JxDuOJqB5bflebxleFcJsfxZvqKQCEWxUCvmNQLDbZAg1EkxrIV4WgUTOYbwosY wkC0u17dqDmHN8JNgmnUbetjIgRg210eDkUVMUL521wdjMW/aM/azfRhDY+Nikolyw UeJodAod3CzODuRkHtctbm+XbMC6XC3g8FDODy4c7ojgyNczqzSCvRd4XVHWcg+ksy qxgFWwhb3oO4qmS6568hgsCfGnM6jSa8MX0yJNvPgfcMZgQscEiUpVC5gIktHDFBVh Mw7tgIn0chELA== Subject: [Shop-talk] Power-vented water heater kicks out. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net We have a newish gas water heater with a power vent. We built the vent line out of Schedule 40 and minded the length and number of bends shown in the docs that came with it. Worked fine for a couple of months, then started kicking off. Gave a 6-2 code which implies venting was inadequate. Took it apart and found a diaphragm switch which measures vacuum on the upstream side of the vent blower. Tech support says that the switch is supposed to trigger at 3/4-inch of water. Switch tests fine by mouth test, but a human can pull several inches of water. Measured vacuum at 7/8-inch of water. This says the switch is bad, so I asked them to send me a new one. Went to Door County and Road America for a week. Came back to find a large parcel. They sent me the whole darn blower assembly. I installed the whole assembly and the same thing still happens. Get this: It runs OK if all the house windows are closed and either the exhaust fan in the basement or the clothes dryer is running. Can I get an auxiliary fan that goes in-line in a Schedule 40 vent line? Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 13 23:26:19 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00BD40E3F for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 23:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f174.google.com (mail-ob0-f174.google.com [209.85.214.174]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA85340431 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:18:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f174.google.com with SMTP id uz6so1752807obc.5 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:18:15 -0700 (PDT) d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=aSFaOU6HsaOiEnsSOI1O7B/NRDkan1tDcfgpV32aYlY=; b=DwuGWJeKNzQgWOu9+MHFvYubUWr2ORx8IR6AJelvcTZhl5gwCg3at8swUOcfJmakES t0R+eLSEGLHzIk4Ss8b/eV2CQjEZ55vCCYW/5/S/aVydBkZemwtIlyKlPndtfHNeprwK FGAMps7Zs9PfcTAd6lnPKHMxI1fmYWIEQ3tdS0u0WDsP5VvuM7HvkMtjGBRxmmVZudnK IAS58UskjwXiMOiRElN3IdzxNSrKCkes+Y/LtYYhZSPloK0LQrnNc7bVnmaEfrScTR66 54mV3bTE2QC7P2u0PBebd/u/v89pmyvrVpbnHl0d0ytXpXZ8RYxqyEGc5kD9Kgrfo7t8 W2rw== oj9mr14902680oeb.40.1379121495561; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.96.71 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:18:15 -0700 (PDT) References: <52337731.8000400@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:18:15 -0400 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water Pressure Relief Valve Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net If this is a city water system, wouldn't the expanding water simply back up into the supply lines? If it is a well system, shouldn't there already be an expansion tank that can deal with it? If there is an expansion tank, perhaps it has lost its air supply and is completely full of water? ( I'm not really familiar with the details of maintaining a well system...) Doug On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Jim - It might be building up too much pressure. Check the water > temperature of the hot water. It should be no more than 140. 120 is safer > and recommended if you have kids. A meat thermometer should be close > enough and covers the right temperature range. > > The two consecutive showers probably made the tank colder than normal. If > it then heated fully without a hot faucet being opened, the pressure > reached the point were the valve tripped like it should. > > If you have a water pressure gauge, you could connect it to the laundry > sink or washing machine hot water valve. Check it after a shower or other > big use of hot water then again after 30 minutes to see how much it went up. > > I've seen cases were people also put in a small expansion tank near the > heater. Search "hot water expansion tank" for details. > > Brian > > > On 9/13/2013 11:58 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > >> The major appliances in the rental property we bought last year were all >> on >> their last legs, but we have been trying to stretch out replacing them as >> long >> as possible to keep it from becoming a money pit. The furnace and >> refrigerator were the first to go. Stove, dishwasher and air conditioner >> are >> all close behind. The water heater is from 2002 and, not knowing how >> well it >> was treated in the past, is probably also at the end of its life >> expectancy. >> The pressure release valve had a very slow drip when we took possession, >> so I >> replaced it. The new one still dripped and, thinking it was a defective >> replacement, I replaced that too. But the drip remained. It probably >> drips >> about a cup a day, but I have the valve running into a floor drain, so I >> have >> never been too worried about that. However, yesterday after both my wife >> and >> I took relatively consecutive showers, the valve opened up completely and >> shot >> water out. I shut off the water supply and the tank and reset the valve >> and >> all has been normal since. I hadn t notice the setting before the valve >> opened, but the water had been very hot and I suspect the renters had >> turned >> it up pretty high. >> >> Is the drip and one time opening up an indication of impending failure? >> I am >> not happy about spending the money right now, but it is certainly better >> to >> replace it ahead of a catastrophic failure. >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** >> options/shop-talk/bk13@**earthlink.net >> > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/doug@**dougbraun.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 13 23:32:56 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329AA42AE1 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 23:32:56 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront4.g2host.com [208.42.184.242]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962DC42847 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:14:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO [192.168.1.45]) by mailfront4.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPSA id 124102950; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 22:13:50 -0500 References: <1474681396.1546335.1379108098424.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> From: Arvid Jedlicka Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 22:13:58 -0500 To: "pethier@comcast.net" Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Power-vented water heater kicks out. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Phil, Doesn't that imply that it runs better when the gas is going the wrong way in the vent? By that I mean that if you suck enough air out of the house that air comes in the vent ... or at least does not go out as fast as it should ... then the pressure in the vent is low enough to keep it on. Or maybe I do not understand what is going on. Arvid On Sep 13, 2013, at 4:34 PM, pethier@comcast.net wrote: > We have a newish gas water heater with a power vent. We built the vent line out of Schedule 40 and minded the length and number of bends shown in the docs that came with it. > > Worked fine for a couple of months, then started kicking off. Gave a 6-2 code which implies venting was inadequate. > > Took it apart and found a diaphragm switch which measures vacuum on the upstream side of the vent blower. Tech support says that the switch is supposed to trigger at 3/4-inch of water. Switch tests fine by mouth test, but a human can pull several inches of water. > > Measured vacuum at 7/8-inch of water. This says the switch is bad, so I asked them to send me a new one. Went to Door County and Road America for a week. Came back to find a large parcel. They sent me the whole darn blower assembly. > > I installed the whole assembly and the same thing still happens. Get this: It runs OK if all the house windows are closed and either the exhaust fan in the basement or the clothes dryer is running. > > Can I get an auxiliary fan that goes in-line in a Schedule 40 vent line? > > Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA > 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue > 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch > 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl > 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red > pethier@comcast.net > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier > http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica > http://www.mnautox.com > http://www.mntriumphs.org > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj@visi.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 14 01:31:40 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4F342DC0 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 01:31:40 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A2A40405 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:52:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.43]) by qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Qri21m0010vp7WLA2rsmMu; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:52:46 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Qrsl1m00Y2yr1eL8RrslDE; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:52:45 +0000 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:52:45 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: Arvid Jedlicka s=q20121106; t=1379130766; bh=GlZaNbirrhz3USa0o+BXsD+qWB6mUOJQnVbR3UbhhN4=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=hdVX3NPiDfGtiRIb6EoI+NjeAvIqqrf0bnIWOgj0qCludkEprVpwTldQ+3yD4gq4G kOTVzYjszzF6xj6xCmTPYo/vUCZFdF4SZ2qxNCnVgDsZLxO7+BPFMVtcxKn47ZxhQp hzF4OBZbNzZXG/SwRGeMScF7vAhgWXUPM5GEAiOQv+H5AvBv+cYyK3UgyNT1fW0xrY nkDEshX2Ik3ez1iT6KzfGwQD27+71rEvATO8cFncluzVa0onnXzdGDJU/adQ8ktwKu yyAwjgrg9FW4iiGJ2e/wgqA5vVc+vHvLmi49AREW9MEYj186brMODUFo3kWXkUJTu0 E5IMy2NTKzprQ== Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Power-vented water heater kicks out. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arvid Jedlicka" > To: pethier@comcast.net > Cc: "shop talk" > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:13:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Power-vented water heater kicks out. > Phil, > > Doesn't that imply that it runs better when the gas is going the wrong > way in the vent? By that I mean that if you suck enough air out of the > house that air comes in the vent ... or at least does not go out as > fast as it should ... then the pressure in the vent is low enough to > keep it on. > > Or maybe I do not understand what is going on. > > Arvid You do understand what is going on, and it does not make sense. Pulling a (fantastically-slight) vacuum on the "flame" side of the fan is supposed to indicate to the sensor that the fan is running. B If the fan fails, there is no vacuum, the sensor thinks the fan has failed or a bird is stuck in the pipe and we are all going to die of CO poisoning. B So the micro-switch on the diaphragm opens and the control system shuts off the power to the fan circuit and kills the gas flame. Even though I measured the vacuum at 7/8 inches, which is supposed to be enough to keep things humming, the old switch was open. You can't just jumper over the switch. B The control system is too smart for that. B If the thermostat calls for flame, the control system checks the diaphragm switch first. B If the switch is closed, the control refuses to start the flame and flashes a code that tells you the switch is shorted out. B It seemed to work better when the house was closed up and there was an exhaust fan on. Counterintuitive, huh? OK, so with the spec the tech guy gave me on the phone, the switch was bad. Trouble is, they sent the whole thing. Sigh. My wife just drew a bath, and the silly thing was just working WITH THE WINDOWS OPEN, so I'm going down to see how it's doing. ===== I'm back. It's heating, and showing the "heartbeat" (their word) code for normal heating. I hope this means that diaphram was stiff from being new and is OK now. Knocking furiously on wood. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 14 03:48:04 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486DE4040E for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:48:04 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5137442263 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 00:24:23 -0600 (MDT) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=toipkH4EDccA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=y8QUq2ESlxAA:10 a=mCy6sYddMDU9CVd74aQA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=9aJ_tDNyMT4A:10 a=UipwXHOuXG0A:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55001] helo=rypc) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 4E/FF-11231-11104325; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 06:24:17 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Jim Stone'" , "'shop talk'" Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 23:24:28 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac6wtL9GX2V6Bb0oSKGC3JCVKfqjLgAXYbUg Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water Pressure Relief Valve Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > hadnt notice the setting > before the valve > opened, but the water had been very hot and I suspect the > renters had turned > it up pretty high. I bet that's the problem then. That valve opens for either temperature or pressure; my guess is that they had the thermostat so high that the valve was on the verge of blowing open. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 14 12:08:49 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6A3427C5 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 12:08:49 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-pd0-f176.google.com (mail-pd0-f176.google.com [209.85.192.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73DD40431 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 09:32:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f176.google.com with SMTP id q10so2425351pdj.21 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 08:32:47 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=vx7efSomvaWYFtrcr7tuPBXBS16sFI6pRBakOyhibEM=; b=JZveVBHhEjj/DTNr+ehLIkr/FUaHv6Cgrb4ki38GDW1gF7VG8a7zxAejfexRB8FLtC jxRzM5BSBLeSSGZXk8PPA//xRKUG4RpiZTsQxb0G6mr7iJwgvH0M6AslImbRdhHu3mwM PyeSvi44lKfkAheyw7dYJYK94Z11PK4spXGgXNmtn/fTT3vMqzRi1gteP0dsRXjn6AXy RDGN5vs3mBXx2snh5p/j5RqSgQ+jh2Uf2KFkPaVMhb89oyBWfIPFlMCQdwwqdC0hn8sT EpL30s3dEgZzu+MBArmZQJbeVfqnSvIhfxF0w7IzNqRtZeyuEiRaAT2BHrRHhDvlInyF cuLA== Sat, 14 Sep 2013 08:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.86.34 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Sep 2013 08:32:47 -0700 (PDT) References: <52337731.8000400@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 10:32:47 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water Pressure Relief Valve Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net neglected to cc the list... On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 10:10 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > >> If this is a city water system, wouldn't the expanding water simply back >> up >> into the supply lines? >> >> > Code -- and good sanitation -- should require an anti-backflow valve on > the input. Water heaters run at less than 140 are potential breeding > grounds for all sorts of the things you do not want in your water, like > legonella. It's becoming common for code to require storage water heaters > to have a temperature of 140F or higher, and use tempering valves to keep > faucets from scalding people. (If you can, you do want to feed your > dishwasher and washing machine with hot hot water.) > > > >> If it is a well system, shouldn't there already be an expansion tank that >> can deal with it? >> If there is an expansion tank, perhaps it has lost its air supply and is >> completely full of >> water? ( I'm not really familiar with the details of maintaining a well >> system...) >> >> > There should be some soft of expansion system, yes. House may be old > enough that the expansion system was the city water supply --no backflow > preventor, and one has been installed. It might also be that there's an > anti-hammer riser that was sized (usually too small...) to do it, and it's > full of water, not air. > > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 16 20:14:37 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2832403EB for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2013 20:14:37 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from blu0-omc2-s25.blu0.hotmail.com (unknown [65.55.111.100]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B269403D4 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2013 18:12:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from BLU0-SMTP181 ([65.55.111.72]) by blu0-omc2-s25.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 16 Sep 2013 17:02:02 -0700 Received: from [192.168.2.6] ([69.127.91.32]) by BLU0-SMTP181.phx.gbl over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 16 Sep 2013 17:02:00 -0700 From: James Stone Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 20:01:59 -0400 References: <52337731.8000400@earthlink.net> To: shop-talk FILETIME=[21E02AD0:01CEB339] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water Pressure Relief Valve Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks, guys. Sorry for the delay. I had to get a meat thermometer. :) The water was only at about 110 degrees after I had turned it down post pressure release. I have turned it up to two notches shy of the maximum and it is now at 120, which sounds like the minimum, especially since the fixtures are not temperature limiting. In answer to other questions that were asked, it is city water and there is an expansion tank installed. The tank looks relatively new and it is one that is still available (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Therm-X-Trol-ST-12-Expansion-Tank-141N43/20429637 2#.UjeZDGR4ars) but haven't had it checked since we bought the house, so I have no idea if it properly functioning or how to test it. I guess the fact that the valve did 'blow' tells me that it isn't working. Correct? I know nothing about these and the installation instructions available on the HD site really don't tell me much. Is this something I can test myself? Thanks again. Jim On Sep 14, 2013, at 11:32 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > neglected to cc the list... > > > On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 10:10 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Doug Braun wrote: >> >>> If this is a city water system, wouldn't the expanding water simply back >>> up >>> into the supply lines? >>> >>> >> Code -- and good sanitation -- should require an anti-backflow valve on >> the input. Water heaters run at less than 140 are potential breeding >> grounds for all sorts of the things you do not want in your water, like >> legonella. It's becoming common for code to require storage water heaters >> to have a temperature of 140F or higher, and use tempering valves to keep >> faucets from scalding people. (If you can, you do want to feed your >> dishwasher and washing machine with hot hot water.) >> >> >> >>> If it is a well system, shouldn't there already be an expansion tank that >>> can deal with it? >>> If there is an expansion tank, perhaps it has lost its air supply and is >>> completely full of >>> water? ( I'm not really familiar with the details of maintaining a well >>> system...) >>> >>> >> There should be some soft of expansion system, yes. House may be old >> enough that the expansion system was the city water supply --no backflow >> preventor, and one has been installed. It might also be that there's an >> anti-hammer riser that was sized (usually too small...) to do it, and it's >> full of water, not air. >> >> >> > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99@msn.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Sep 18 06:07:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C514403DD for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 06:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96395403D8 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 06:05:57 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 07:46:22 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 09/18/2013 07:46:25, Serialize complete at 09/18/2013 07:46:25 Subject: [Shop-talk] Surveillance camera systems Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Does anyone know of a software app or website (free or low cost) that helps design the layout for security cameras? What I am looking for is a way to list where the cameras are located, what I want them to cover, and the app tell me what type of camera I need (lens type and degree of coverage, etc.) This is a pretty straight forward install, but I wanted to find the best cameras to use and the best places to put them. SHOP CONTENT- Once I install the new system in the house, the old system is going into the shop! 8>) Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Sep 18 07:08:19 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD8E403EC for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 07:08:19 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.105]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7968403DD for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 07:07:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.50.11] ([12.162.141.2]) by p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id Sd6s1m00e03JK1Y01d6tpt; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 06:06:54 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:06:50 -0500 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Surveillance camera systems Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Check out www.supercircuits.com. They have some calculators under resources, then video security tools. Their equipment is good also. I have 5 analog systems installed for clients. Only problem I've had is that after several years the hard drives start to fail, but the drives have had 5 year warranties from the drive manufacturer, so I get free replacements. Peace, Pat Thusly spake eric > Does anyone know of a software app or website (free or low cost) that > helps design the layout for security cameras? > > What I am looking for is a way to list where the cameras are located, what > I want them to cover, and the app tell me what type of camera I need (lens > type and degree of coverage, etc.) > > This is a pretty straight forward install, but I wanted to find the best > cameras to use and the best places to put them. > > SHOP CONTENT- Once I install the new system in the house, the old system > is going into the shop! 8>) > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com > > > Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 20 11:25:10 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D50A429CE for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 11:25:10 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0947742817 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 10:16:55 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 11:57:28 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 09/20/2013 11:57:40, Serialize complete at 09/20/2013 11:57:40 Subject: [Shop-talk] Installing multiple 240 outlets. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, here is my situation.. I need to install 240v lines for 2 devices across the shop. Since this is over 50' and these are 40 amp circuits, I was wondering if there was a way that I could save on the wire costs. The 2 devices are an outlet for welder/plasma cutter. It will be RARELY used (only if I need to weld or cut something outside the shop.) The other device is a electric car charger. It's a 240v 20 amp circuit (I didn't think that the amps were correct, but it is.) This will be used nightly. They will never be used at the same time. Here is what I was thinking of doing... Just running a 240/40 amp outlet to the point I need it, then put a plug on the car charger and leave it plugged in. Just unplug it when I need to use the welder. But, I was wondering if there was a way to hardwire the charger and have the plug open normally. Is there any safety concern if I did this? BTW, for those that may be looking for an electric car, I did major amounts of research and extended test drives (with metrics) on three of them (Smartcar electric, Leaf, Volt.). I went with the Chevy Volt because it was best for my needs (but might not be best for yours). If anyone is considering one of these cars, let me know and I can send you my findings. If you are spending more than $200 a month of fuel, and you work less than 30 miles away from your home, these could SAVE you money each month! I have no interest in any of them, nor do I work for any of these firms. I'm just pretty good at math and it made sense to me! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 20 14:13:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AF442F3B for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 14:13:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from itonami.pair.com (itonami.pair.com [209.68.2.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D014A4290D for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:08:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 35742 invoked by uid 3198); 20 Sep 2013 18:07:46 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 20 Sep 2013 18:07:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 14:07:46 -0400 (EDT) From: David Hillman To: eric@megageek.com References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (BSF 1266 2009-07-14) Cc: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Installing multiple 240 outlets. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Fri, 20 Sep 2013, eric@megageek.com wrote: > Just running a 240/40 amp outlet to the point I need it, then put a plug > on the car charger and leave it plugged in. Just unplug it when I need to > use the welder. > > But, I was wondering if there was a way to hardwire the charger and have > the plug open normally. Is there any safety concern if I did this? I would be willing to bet that the charger has an owner's manual of some sort that tells you explicitly how you may and may not wire it. The safety concern would be, obviously, that if you ( or someone less careful ) try to pull more than 20a from the plug while the charger is operating, you will overload the circuit. That will probably just trip the breaker, but it isn't 'safe'. Plus the possiblity of the charger malfunctioning, and being hardwired without a disconnect switch (other than the breaker). The cheapest proper way to do it would be your initial description, one run, one 40a receptacle, and matching plugs on each device, plus the minor inconvenience of unplugging the charger. > BTW, for those that may be looking for an electric car, I did major > amounts of research and extended test drives (with metrics) on three of > them (Smartcar electric, Leaf, Volt.). I went with the Chevy Volt because > it was best for my needs (but might not be best for yours). If anyone is > considering one of these cars, let me know and I can send you my findings. No Ford Focus on your list? I get a kick out of my colleague who bought an electric motorcycle recently ( Brammo ). For what he spent, he could've bought a cheap Ducati, invested the difference in a nice dividend-paying fund, and used the proceeds to buy himself gas, and lunch everyday. And he wouldn't need to take the bike to Walgreens for a quick charge on lunch. -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Sep 20 17:04:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513A3429E3 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:04:36 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f177.google.com (mail-ye0-f177.google.com [209.85.213.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9FA42837 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 15:00:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ye0-f177.google.com with SMTP id q9so335177yen.22 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT) s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=6Kru5JODWWnYfJk+uDggQ50kEQr6516hDhd9Rwmmwf0=; b=y36oJqRRdeM61AsrlydO8OukQ6g1lONgS4y13wT/o7d2e9bU9MA5/k+XdZwrP9N7G5 EDvUTMAN1QuK8fX6sxVMh7I9NDQDHvQFo8Z+LZ12P7fVEj56EDI4gOh6JmCLR4YmPB5c tG0LXor2CLQpJLe+2Nwo43ihWZrpTUHhTUVwNzLRhvTCdLDqqNxL0cM9IkPb4hAQRj1B OR+wGqZd2Ec7x3yawkLp2nq7F+lNkKS8ZBQbmYO+n6KEaPyeWdR7+ChKvgjf4e7nKRnB 2kCtvILg9dM2RV4vd9fyvG5Zv5l/9w8JhnVszRR1z8GVvf3CkGlMDyyCDJ+pQUnRoDcr 6lPQ== d50mr8446637yhd.47.1379710803632; Fri, 20 Sep 2013 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:1006:b12c:f1bf:adbb:9b35:932:c13d? ([2600:1006:b12c:f1bf:adbb:9b35:932:c13d]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s20sm20744360yhi.0.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Sep 2013 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT) References: From: Paul Parkanzky Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:00:00 -0400 To: "eric@megageek.com" Cc: "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Installing multiple 240 outlets. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I faced a similar situation when I wired my garage. I ended up running a circuit to my compressor, which is hard-wired,and then putting a 220v outlet next to the compressor on the same circuit for occasional use. I just have to make sure that the compressor is turned off if I'm going to plug something in to that outlet. I don't see why this is a safety concern. I have many outlets wired to each 15 or 20A circuit in my house. I can plug a 12A load into any if them, but I can't run two 12A loads off of one. It's the same in the garage but with another hot leg. -Paul > On Sep 20, 2013, at 11:57 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > > OK, here is my situation.. > > I need to install 240v lines for 2 devices across the shop. Since this is > over 50' and these are 40 amp circuits, I was wondering if there was a way > that I could save on the wire costs. > > The 2 devices are an outlet for welder/plasma cutter. It will be RARELY > used (only if I need to weld or cut something outside the shop.) > The other device is a electric car charger. It's a 240v 20 amp circuit (I > didn't think that the amps were correct, but it is.) This will be used > nightly. > They will never be used at the same time. > > Here is what I was thinking of doing... > > Just running a 240/40 amp outlet to the point I need it, then put a plug > on the car charger and leave it plugged in. Just unplug it when I need to > use the welder. > > But, I was wondering if there was a way to hardwire the charger and have > the plug open normally. Is there any safety concern if I did this? > > > BTW, for those that may be looking for an electric car, I did major > amounts of research and extended test drives (with metrics) on three of > them (Smartcar electric, Leaf, Volt.). I went with the Chevy Volt because > it was best for my needs (but might not be best for yours). If anyone is > considering one of these cars, let me know and I can send you my findings. > > > If you are spending more than $200 a month of fuel, and you work less than > 30 miles away from your home, these could SAVE you money each month! > > I have no interest in any of them, nor do I work for any of these firms. > I'm just pretty good at math and it made sense to me! > > Eric P _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Sep 21 12:01:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2B942BC8 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2013 12:01:14 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5101442779 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2013 07:58:54 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 09:39:07 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 09/21/2013 09:39:18, Serialize complete at 09/21/2013 09:39:18 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Installing multiple 240 outlets. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net David asks... >No Ford Focus on your list? It was on the list, but after seeing the same results with the other two all electric cars, I felt there was no reason to waste my time. It was listed at about the same ranges, etc. The problem is my range. Most electric cars work best if your daily commute is either 30 miles or less, or less than 60 miles, but you can charge at work. My need is 34 miles one way, and no ability to charge at work (yet.) That is why I went with the volt. Once the battery is gone, you got unlimited fuel. With the Volt, I can now pressure my employer to get the charging station, because I already have a car to use on it, but I can use the gas until they do. The only reason I did this was that the numbers worked or me (I need an SUV that gets poor milage frequently but not as a daily commuter), so my fuel costs were $460 a month at $3.50 a gallon. I have 2 spreadsheets and (for those into higher level analysis) a "analysis of competing hypothesis" matrix that all point to the Volt as the answer.* So the new vehicle, with all the costs (insurance, etc) was less than I was currently spending, and I gain a new car in the process and save the milage of my SUV which I love and can keep much longer now. Oh, I have solar at my house, so that makes a recharge 'free' for me as well. I have a feeling that in 3 to 5 years, electric cars will be more of the 'norm' and not fringe. *=(I have no problem sharing these with anyone interested.) Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Sep 22 15:06:53 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D89042EA5 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 2013 15:06:53 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64FA40401 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 2013 14:46:35 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 16:26:33 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 09/22/2013 16:26:33, Serialize complete at 09/22/2013 16:26:33 Subject: [Shop-talk] Data for Volt purchase Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net A bunch of people contacted me for the data on why I bought the Volt. So, instead of sending out my short-handed spreadsheets, I did what any geek would do... I threw together a quick webpage. Here is the link... http://www.megageek.com/elecar/index.htm Now, some of the values and such were messed up a little bit, but you get the idea. (I'm not sure what happened when I pasted them in the webpage, and I'm on my way to a training course this week. I can fix it later.) Let me know if you have any other questions. Enoy! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Sep 24 14:41:38 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0412403D3 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:41:38 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B1A40329; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 13:49:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2A1A1022; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 13:48:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 13:48:38 -0600 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:22.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/22.0 SeaMonkey/2.19 To: Spridget list , shop-talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Mystery tool Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net To see the tool: http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165 mjb. ps: Just got the comcast network up and running, not sure how soon Team.Net will be migrated over. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Sep 24 19:12:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A62140403 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 19:12:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ve0-f177.google.com (mail-ve0-f177.google.com [209.85.128.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D228C40357; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 15:53:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f177.google.com with SMTP id db12so3993052veb.36 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:53:09 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=fbuARH0vlYq/zYYImfu94iVqR25GVi1oZuvGM/lwqo4=; b=poIBTPifK9x9W6pdlLeb/ETDKmvjGBOCdBCLVOk4IgQ5mXX1HKmlEHj1ZRoYCOmy2O 1f4JIZ3j39k/e/nbPft4+nFtVP9PxY8H7YUiYSjLQhwX+oo0g/1V6DKwlmBQLY2s+v3P MMPt5b+HTelDW6bC1aM5GB45LGM+BzLhmK0rgyXCL1ITmzC+6ak03GG+WDUettWHmQHj Iw3wGN6jM7DATNRBr4oMnsJrZMN1JlgrVPlzMoC7oBi7du6bvb/VW3t5Qo+RIfGvlIs3 zkm/KB57F9eRZdC5P1Xlz3dfzinyoJBOwtjD7Uo3bFU3efsg3uw4FNagdvVZGTA9Yr4f n8+Q== la14mr25416851vdb.9.1380059589544; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.231.10 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:53:09 -0700 (PDT) References: <5241EC96.6090707@bradakis.com> <1380055787.66831.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 17:53:09 -0400 From: Brian Morse To: Michael MacLean Cc: Spridget list , shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Spridgets] Mystery tool Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I was thinking that larger diameter stainless deal was some kind of a float, like maybe a blinker fluid hydrometer? ;) On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Michael MacLean wrote: > OK, I have seen the tool. I think is is to adjust the muffler bearing. ;^) > Mike MacLean > 60 Sprite > 56 BN2 > > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: > Mark J Bradakis > >To: Spridget list > ; shop-talk List > >Sent: > Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:48 PM > >Subject: [Spridgets] Mystery tool > > > > > >To see the tool: > > > > > >http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165 > > > > > >mjb. > > > >ps: Just got the comcast network up and running, not sure how soon > Team.Net > >will be migrated over. > >------------------------ > > > >spridgets@autox.team.net > > > >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Suggested annual donation: $12.75 > > > >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > >Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/rrengineer.mike@att.net > ------------------------ > > spridgets@autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation: $12.75 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/owensdad74@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Sep 24 19:14:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146E640403 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 19:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from filter01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (filter01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net [199.224.80.228]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6F54038B; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:54:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by filter01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFC11FEE3B; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 22:54:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay03.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net ([199.224.80.246]) by localhost (filter01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net [199.224.80.228]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7xIxszW3B+Je; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 22:54:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from MAIN (50-48-36-17.dr04.mdtw.ny.frontiernet.net [50.48.36.17]) by relay03.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 08B4C940EA; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 22:54:00 +0000 (UTC) From: "Jim F" To: "Michael MacLean" , "Mark J Bradakis" , "Spridget list" , "shop-talk List" References: <5241EC96.6090707@bradakis.com> <1380055787.66831.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:53:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Spridgets] Mystery tool Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Definitely for adjusting the Spridget canootin valve. -----Original Message----- From: Michael MacLean Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 4:49 PM To: Mark J Bradakis ; Spridget list ; shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Spridgets] Mystery tool OK, I have seen the tool. I think is is to adjust the muffler bearing. ;^) Mike MacLean 60 Sprite 56 BN2 >________________________________ > From: Mark J Bradakis >To: Spridget list ; shop-talk List >Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:48 PM >Subject: [Spridgets] Mystery tool > > >To see the tool: > > >http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165 > > >mjb. > >ps: Just got the comcast network up and running, not sure how soon Team.Net >will be migrated over. >------------------------ > >spridgets@autox.team.net > >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation: $12.75 > >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/rrengineer.mike@att.net ------------------------ spridgets@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/jimndi@frontiernet.net ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4117 / Virus Database: 3604/1 - Release Date: 09/04/13 Internal Virus Database is out of date. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Sep 24 22:32:45 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76819403EF for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 22:32:45 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm11-vm10.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm11-vm10.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.114.233]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A8C400A5 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2013 22:30:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.196.81.158] by nm11.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2013 04:29:39 -0000 Received: from [98.139.244.51] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2013 04:29:39 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp113.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2013 04:29:39 -0000 s=s1024; t=1380083379; bh=g/7GJfCB0rmolE3pOEdAFE92a/p/qk+T+ZFSz/UWCPw=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:X-MimeOLE; b=O0CltjzE1GVSXzXKHWBl6jPestNkerbon+dV7d4s/cXnUHDKPQFNIDunWCpv47E20YQQR/7wftwhNQdV3acKsTeZTIFNczgiyL+lR/FEApmxpdc6oKrCKSfDXZl/DszFfyXt19XbUnVCa0f29nU700+BDR42Mm1/xL5ELs+aE3U= cHCi1szeZL3BPHCrZM_61ouJkkcFju5xzqk2QljIf6UGrjqGHqORxUb5YgVM 6ndOQgNW9.9LYjWMm4_728_o2upHcOm.jAXEBnzvtGzrZT_4s307KnJQocHL Q63tUWQ6ECuZ3FPQ7GNqaCnGIYcObeEL6pDmF_OpA2o2lqv1ltN53ccm1jdG 5OgTHZseab7KGwm03TSSoHCaqdG.00wn0qU.84HDGCCcrEo4rO1CaoaTomgk hg_Nv2bBNh00oIRv366xlQW99JfRHndTDcvOwZqVlK8jdliV1JbjKWU6z818 ICPX4JyP3S6nqMNHlpWeqcB6BcgNT7An8apiJ_LRn2ikuctTtzOBezDrxvR0 _VBq_f95yxCx.BYzzpx6jOgcKWzbRtpfEGSu2v3_6Xddz_M9430tSA2Fq6dv zujxJHdra5iVrEHRiXTMbfIw7wgx5aMbmw2YwaqAM4fSAWFHi6paeThpk35C VWnaDRvfheCswPb2LCO7mHHC7vzMZhEuLIeaOVSv8qNNOVYQgchHTe7S2BiV gycZ2L_o7t6fN7h7ETNxICeooB1nx8CTHWyPFdPzW7JQ- smtp113.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2013 21:29:39 -0700 PDT From: "Jack Brooks" To: "'Spridget list'" , "'shop-talk List'" References: <5241EC96.6090707@bradakis.com><1380055787.66831.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 21:29:31 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac65jIDuVVclyfHLSz2VEs/YVyFxgQAGrSkQ Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Spridgets] Mystery tool Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Simple, it's not an automotive tool, it's for rolling out bread stick dough. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim F Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 3:54 PM To: Michael MacLean; Mark J Bradakis; Spridget list; shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Spridgets] Mystery tool Definitely for adjusting the Spridget canootin valve. -----Original Message----- From: Michael MacLean Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 4:49 PM To: Mark J Bradakis ; Spridget list ; shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Spridgets] Mystery tool OK, I have seen the tool. I think is is to adjust the muffler bearing. ;^) Mike MacLean 60 Sprite 56 BN2 >________________________________ > From: Mark J Bradakis >To: Spridget list ; shop-talk List >Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:48 PM >Subject: [Spridgets] Mystery tool > > >To see the tool: > > >http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165 > > >mjb. > >ps: Just got the comcast network up and running, not sure how soon Team.Net >will be migrated over. >------------------------ > >spridgets@autox.team.net > >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation: $12.75 > >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/rrengineer.mike@att.net ------------------------ spridgets@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/jimndi@frontiernet.net ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4117 / Virus Database: 3604/1 - Release Date: 09/04/13 Internal Virus Database is out of date. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Sep 25 11:19:42 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17124041C for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 11:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from eastrmfepo101.cox.net (eastrmfepo101.cox.net [68.230.241.213]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D85340403 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 11:15:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eastrmimpo209 ([68.230.241.224]) by eastrmfepo101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20130925171442.RBZZ3872.eastrmfepo101.cox.net@eastrmimpo209> for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:14:42 -0400 Received: from Joanna ([72.209.198.214]) by eastrmimpo209 with cox id VVEf1m00D4e2Beo01VEi1v; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:14:42 -0400 a=z+JOQeSqIXLCGjBsmWTDRw==:17 a=G8Uczd0VNMoA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=RTp0_LOmZqwA:10 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=HDDKiiZnn_b5x04JUpQA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=KKlYSzzsuLgA:10 a=QHqqnK016tYA:10 a=YD0Jk11vISMA:10 a=lAXl5HilGx4A:10 a=nZRmcjgVFS1inrTc:21 a=z+JOQeSqIXLCGjBsmWTDRw==:117 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none From: "ElanS4" To: "'shop-talk List'" References: Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:14:44 -0400 Thread-Index: AQIqCIXWBHLRy6ODnGwSceLHdp9GwZkgE7YQ Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mystery tool Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mark J Bradakis wrote about a mystery tool: > > To see the tool: > > > http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165 Does the thick metal "lump" ion the middle of the shaft come off either end of the shaft? It looks like some kind of slide hammer, but I don't see any stop on either end. Tim Mullen _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 10:39:12 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC30403E0 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:39:12 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4877403F7 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:38:57 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 12:17:58 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 09/30/2013 12:18:04, Serialize complete at 09/30/2013 12:18:04 Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hello all, theoretical question about engines. My co-workers and I were talking about trying to identify if an engine was tampered with after it was destroyed. (I work in law enforcement.) We were wondering, would you be able to tell if someone put sugar in a gas tank and it lunched the engine? Mostly on a small engine verses a car. (I'm assuming that a fuel filter would catch any additives in a car.) If so, is there something else to put in gas that would kill it? Or something else that can be done that was undetectable? I knew this would be the place for the definitive answer! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 11:26:29 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFBB2403DD for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:26:29 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wg0-f48.google.com (mail-wg0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B12840042 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:26:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id n12so5936794wgh.3 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:25:11 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Gh8Km6NhdUOy/NAuN9OkZayfWp0XPQmmb10PQpMsfbA=; b=WoLfN7uDFEOQz7ziCqrndj0KjDep4GEkoqit1FJbcK7Sh4ePeSD/HHdl1FGoyCmztS peJHK31DAfqvI5yIt8qYdcqchwDlVDRdFRMIVjD80+ugeiesBdKlg9Yn6gJIlWtNLybv W4/H1XIim4xw1gmNZV/ZzGJTU/9sQZivPYN7TdOP23rS8zrflrNE16LfMPLR5GwNmW7y fQ79YOOoo1yWhXUEchJf5ijzSJezznTdTSlcWa9t2Qy/SNgZ37FAOz4I/b2NqqiK+ZPU Bi1kQv5Yo+GXNS4rPuj1lPAaQuJv7Fd8k8XIimFs5vBXh4jQabAIGSwb3Azro4VZLkEl WKTA== j18mr14787324wic.51.1380561910863; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.175.73 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:25:10 -0700 (PDT) References: Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 12:25:10 -0500 From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" To: eric@megageek.com Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm sure the collective will suggest several methods of destructive ways to damage an engine: abrasives, acids, adhesives, etc., but for a positive lock on the damage there is oil analysis available to anyone: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free-test-kits.php Tony in Texas On 30 September 2013 11:17, wrote: > Hello all, theoretical question about engines. > > My co-workers and I were talking about trying to identify if an engine was > tampered with after it was destroyed. (I work in law enforcement.) > > We were wondering, would you be able to tell if someone put sugar in a gas > tank and it lunched the engine? Mostly on a small engine verses a car. > (I'm assuming that a fuel filter would catch any additives in a car.) > > If so, is there something else to put in gas that would kill it? Or > something else that can be done that was undetectable? > > I knew this would be the place for the definitive answer! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 11:40:12 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2799740405 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:40:12 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com (mail-wi0-f178.google.com [209.85.212.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C85403E0 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:40:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f178.google.com with SMTP id hn9so4296722wib.5 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=RZGanRfXEoDKnmmvFv9SuMcOFZKnssKyHi071+ujxYE=; b=IW2jJnRs87yjCJgvPbmPCL5s7FmcBv2SZa7dkc6ibhgpJ2XoMObF47ltvd0wOPN5Fz JmvS6KATOZ4JGRhurqoAa32INYcyfMv8j2outwHNj0AwmW73XraIY7M+QMGDaQj5Ebq6 63wYmbll2jhWovMucVCkK5s9X2efjV10DMbgg4gEh+gveilHlPGrd2V0fmIBrZea3EEq UsYG4a/I23jFo2mVRJO3RN949jgoYZCoUKymjAKOxKTgn83JW90F2nFgjQDQGOqJ8GKw dVS//uCRBy4cXfseX3EmyAuKb9pZz0fuT13WEAxoEXRSpI6dQYXr+qN3RRAwsKoizdx5 qrTg== cj3mr18630655wjc.8.1380562730621; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.222.6 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT) References: Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:38:50 -0400 From: Benjamin Zwissler To: eric@megageek.com Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Well, first I'd clear up the popular myth that sugar in the gas will kill your car very quickly. Snopes and Click and Clack have both dealt with this and both say the sugar won't do any immediate damage to your car. Sugar doesn't dissolve in water and the worst problem might be a plugged filter, but even that's unlikely. Most likely its just going to sit in the bottom of the tank. So, if you're looking at other things that will quickly kill an engine if added to the fuel, my first thought would be diesel fuel or water. I'd say both are reasonably detectable though and generally reversible. Beyond those I'm not sure. If you put something that lowered the Octane significantly you could damage the engine from excessive knock. You could plug the filter, carb/injectors with some type of contaminant, maybe epoxy paint or something that thickens/hardens. Lots of thiings could be put in the oil, including gasoline, water, etc., that would cause slow damage to the engine. Excessive amounts of ether starting fluid in the intake while its running will kill it pretty quick. As will dribbling lots of water in the intake. Depending on how much time has elapased these may not be detectable. Ben.... On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 12:17 PM, wrote: > Hello all, theoretical question about engines. > > My co-workers and I were talking about trying to identify if an engine was > tampered with after it was destroyed. (I work in law enforcement.) > > We were wondering, would you be able to tell if someone put sugar in a gas > tank and it lunched the engine? Mostly on a small engine verses a car. > (I'm assuming that a fuel filter would catch any additives in a car.) > > If so, is there something else to put in gas that would kill it? Or > something else that can be done that was undetectable? > > I knew this would be the place for the definitive answer! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 11:40:41 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA5A4040A for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:40:41 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D059C40075 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:40:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e6b78.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.107.120]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MTY00HLD91NOA40@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:38:05 -0400 From: Steven Trovato To: eric@megageek.com, shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net That whole sugar in the gas tank thing is pretty much just an urban legend. Check out snopes on this: http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/sugar.asp. This is how they did it for the "cash for clunkers" program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0IcIxhd8ks. But that wasn't added to the gas. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 12:17 PM 9/30/2013, eric@megageek.com wrote: >Hello all, theoretical question about engines. > >My co-workers and I were talking about trying to identify if an engine was >tampered with after it was destroyed. (I work in law enforcement.) > >We were wondering, would you be able to tell if someone put sugar in a gas >tank and it lunched the engine? Mostly on a small engine verses a car. >(I'm assuming that a fuel filter would catch any additives in a car.) > >If so, is there something else to put in gas that would kill it? Or >something else that can be done that was undetectable? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 13:16:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA9D403F2 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:16:48 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84596403BB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:16:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.74]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XSKN1m0051bwxycA1XFUE4; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:15:28 +0000 Received: from BigBlack ([IPv6:2601:8:a100:8c5:b8df:e7c3:3cdd:bb83]) by omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XXFT1m0085Bmo948eXFTG8; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:15:27 +0000 From: "Bob Kegel" To: , References: Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 12:15:26 -0700 s=q20121106; t=1380568528; bh=mpgJCvfQrhFn2cIhrwf4xso3einFB7Dp9dqC/zB+jqU=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=C4uHsbeEUCV3SnOkGbVC2CPUjSN1VxzyhY58t+7G4dlKByxHqyCWCbPvMpsjTEV1r S7gFGcH0YzQ+bCNOrsdC1TA7uBi2a2SBh8CjAMstoYYAIrdMzmCzCFFZVaNvTrrh7i 8cR+YZZXAAj8TdJrerutd8J8Gbo3vEy93qeDuQ5ndSmEZ4swmZ01DMPRU8xsriR54W t8ugZVFQ/Nvrs4Xv0PVtAYwQBXctrQGVo9NTzAfWO7rCBWIEGFDK2iaZpRfOfzn/la WYoFp+iGOKydwcqdroP2CT9dneOCysb7+RtAjMPtCks5wC1as6K2xecFb4L6CEGaRm iWofxMoBvTxAQ== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Many years ago I read Stanley Lovell's book, "Of Spies and Stratagems", about his experiences as head of the OSS' research and development lab. They were tasked with finding a way to disable Axis vehicles, suitable for use by a spy or resistance members. The lab was unable to develop anything that could be added to fuel. What they eventually came up with was an abrasive that would trash an engine's bearings when added to the oil. It was delivered in a capsule, dropped through the oil filler. Bob k _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 13:42:13 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D157A4040B for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:42:13 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com [71.74.56.122]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42A94032B for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:37:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([10.127.143.54]) by cdptpa-qmta01.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20130930183240019.IRUO29869@cdptpa-qmta01.mail.rr.com> for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:32:40 +0000 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=zYORt0XMr8EA:10 a=qSyJ_TLO3p0o0QuPvNcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=E6k37eg1NvgA:10 a=lJK_ERSfM-kA:10 a=Y7nL-CZb3noA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55014] helo=rypc) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id F1/B9-04515-A83C9425; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:31:38 +0000 From: "Randall" Cc: Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:31:37 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac6+A/l5ZuzfzYcIR5CSO6R0TXBR/AABvaZQ Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Sugar doesn't dissolve in water Presumably you meant gasoline. I wonder, though, what would happen with E10? Sugar will definitely dissolve in ethanol/water mixtures. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 19:43:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1256B403FB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:43:36 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from wavecable.net (mail3.wavecable.net [76.14.0.250]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A642B4003F for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:43:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [76.14.3.240] (HELO [10.0.1.5]) by wavecable.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 728596909; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:43:40 -0700 References: From: Fred Katz Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:42:08 -0700 To: "eric@megageek.com" Cc: "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Bleach added to a gas tank will destroy an engine. Fred - SSF, CA On Sep 30, 2013, at 9:17 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > Hello all, theoretical question about engines. > > My co-workers and I were talking about trying to identify if an engine was > tampered with after it was destroyed. (I work in law enforcement.) > > We were wondering, would you be able to tell if someone put sugar in a gas > tank and it lunched the engine? Mostly on a small engine verses a car. > (I'm assuming that a fuel filter would catch any additives in a car.) > > If so, is there something else to put in gas that would kill it? Or > something else that can be done that was undetectable? > > I knew this would be the place for the definitive answer! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 19:52:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB77F40424 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:52:25 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from wavecable.net (mail3.wavecable.net [76.14.0.250]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC999403D3 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [76.14.3.240] (HELO [10.0.1.5]) by wavecable.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 728600025; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:52:34 -0700 References: From: Fred Katz Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:51:06 -0700 To: "eric@megageek.com" Cc: "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine damage Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I just read up on why bleach destroys an engine. The chlorine reacts chemically with gasoline and causes extreme rusting (oxidation). A high volume of rust sediment will be found in the engine. Additionally, the bleach corrodes all metal, plastic and rubber it comes into contact with. Also breaks free sediment in gas tanks and fuel lines, sending it to the engine when running. Fred - On Sep 30, 2013, at 9:17 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > Hello all, theoretical question about engines. > > My co-workers and I were talking about trying to identify if an engine was > tampered with after it was destroyed. (I work in law enforcement.) > > We were wondering, would you be able to tell if someone put sugar in a gas > tank and it lunched the engine? Mostly on a small engine verses a car. > (I'm assuming that a fuel filter would catch any additives in a car.) > > If so, is there something else to put in gas that would kill it? Or > something else that can be done that was undetectable? > > I knew this would be the place for the definitive answer! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Sep 30 20:25:45 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC114040D for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 20:25:45 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.212]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA34403D3 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 20:25:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.87]) by qmta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XdsV1m0071smiN4AEeQQAp; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 02:24:24 +0000 Received: from Mike ([71.227.251.244]) by omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XeQP1m00d5H8Ttj8geQPkl; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 02:24:24 +0000 From: "Mike" To: "Shop Talk" References: <5241EC96.6090707@bradakis.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:25:00 -0700 s=q20121106; t=1380594264; bh=DKhDkvrCqG8pGifTFqcF1MDflAJuN277V9t8EOD76uk=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=E/sieQTJiFhy5zC1aSrlXGHwdrRxe4KQoFJ0/rCJqta3tct2HkQWgUB0aOguX895b gnbJ1kuWmkXu5nBokIk6svCvDQg5jbMVwe6hVGzgMOj8m/lBSjNCieKdlFc2GRPSIa eoDM/bwEJz1TpQbBGl9ZvkGO3yIWL14pUW5hJjn7A1hTSgLWUK7z6inLpmKXpocEvY X7EqmNlXIurZIvt53WcwfijXNTjwM01vu7wULfJikGZNo/3P8LctJVVH9akhNhf2e5 NF7MvIQFS/kJ+zELR0WLB+CmZRJK5oRMBKnxg3R9QFy2Oav6s0t2TIJPn3TYxM2P55 h3ocedOnpdR8A== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mystery tool Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Did I miss the answer to this? (It wouldn't be the first time I didn't know what was going on.) If still unknown, it looks like an inspection tool for measuring something, I don't know what. Mike ========================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J Bradakis" To: "Spridget list" ; "shop-talk List" Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Mystery tool > To see the tool: > > > http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165 > > > mjb. > > ps: Just got the comcast network up and running, not sure how soon > Team.Net > will be migrated over. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/phoenix722@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive